Listen to the Kingdom Rewards Conference

You will find most of the answers at the following link:
http://p079.ezboard.com/fthemidweekrapturefrm166.showMessage?topicID=6.topic

This link will take you to a refutation of the book "The Rod - Will God Spare It?" by J. D. Faust.

 

It makes little difference to me how you JUDGE Pastor Denson. His "manner of speech" is usually the problem for those that DO NOT accept Paul's doctrines for the body of Christ. As the apostle Paul so aptly put it:

1 Corinthians 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

Perhaps the apostle Peter summed your HEART ATTITUDE even better in this verse:

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

R. J.

 

It makes little difference to me how you JUDGE Pastor Denson. His "manner of speech" is usually the problem for those that DO NOT accept Paul's doctrines for the body of Christ. As the apostle Paul so aptly put it:

1 Corinthians 14:38 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant.

Perhaps the apostle Peter summed your HEART ATTITUDE even better in this verse:

2 Peter 3:16 As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

R. J.</font>[/QUOTE]I guess he don't "care to", Jim

Perhaps if he spent less time JUDGING the "HEART ATTITUDES" of his redeemed, blood-bought brothers, he might have time to try to convince someone with Scripture rather than empty, and caustic "manners of speech".

lacy

 

R.J.;
Nicely done! However, I DO accept Paul's doctrines for the New Testament Church. They are no different than our Lord's doctrines. The two are not exclusive of one another since it was Christ who taught Paul.

Now, answer the question.

You claim to know my "heart attitude" by referring to 2 Peter. Your problem brother is that I could just as easily apply it to you, (from my perspective). But would that really ANSWER anything? Nope! So let's get to the issue shall we? The issue here is that you have NO ANSWER for my question. I'll state it again;

How is it that the death of an unfaithful believer sanctifies that believer?

In HIS service;
Jim

 

av1611jim,

Your question is not clear to me. You mean, the question is, how does the death of unfaithful servant separates from faithful servant? Is that what you ask a question? Please explain the question more clarify to us, thanks.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -men!

 

It is offensive to me that somehow this heresy is being considered as a Fundamental doctrine on this board.

Don't you all have a special place for heresy?

 

DPT;
I apologize. Perhaps I should have been more clear.

Our opponenets, (Saved Christians just like us!) believe that there is no accountability for our disobedience and unfaithfulness at the JSOC. Meaning there will be NO negative "rewards" at that familial and judicial event. All they face is "loss of reward".

This belief opens the door for the following scenario;

Christain "A" is faithful and obedient to Christ his entire life as a believer. According to Scripture he is entitled to hear, "Well done thou good and faithful servant. Enter thou into the joy of the Lord."

Christian "B" is slothful and careless. Some would call him a "nominal" christian. He goes to church perhaps but really doesn't do much for the Lord. According to some here, this man is also entitled to enter the Kingdom of Christ. He, too, will hear, "Well done thou good and faithful servant. Enter thou into the joy of the Lord."

My question is this. Since death is the ONLY thing which could have been the common thing in both of these men's lives,(besides salvation) how is it that the one enters BECAUSE he was faithful, and the other enters IN SPITE of his unfaithfulness?

So...how is it that death sanctifies (set apart as holy for the service of God) the disobedient and unfaithful servant? Does God ignore his disobedience?

In HIS service;
Jim

 

BBB;
On the contrary my brother.

Some would consider the opposite to be "heresy".

To imagine that one could live a fruitless and offensive life for Christ, and still be rewarded the inheritance of the kingdom, is offensive not just to me and others here, but to the Lord Himself.

In EVERY one of Christ's discourses about the coming millenial Kingdom, He ALWAYS stressed faithfulness of the believer (disciple) as conditional upon entrance.

So my dear brother. Please be not so harsh as to suggest that our Lord taught "heresy".

In HIS service;
Jim

 

av1611jim,

I got it!

Ok,

Let's discuss on 1 Cor. 3:11-15. This is talking about our works at the judgment seat of Christ at Christ's coming. Baptists saying, 'fire' is speak of testing our works, not our salvation, also, they saying, "but he himself shall be saved;" prove that a person cannot lose salvation, but only loss reward by fire as it shows the result of our works shall be.

Read verse 15 very carefully:

"If any man's work shall be burned he shall suffer loss: BUT he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

This verse is discuss about two persons, not one person. Notice it shows of ':', it shows there is cause or show of the opposite.

The book of Proverbs show lof of verses with ':'. I am going to show you several verses in the book of Proverbs:

Prov. 10:2 "Treasures of wickedness profit nothing: BUT righteousness deliverth from death."

Prov. 10:7 "The memory of the just is blessed: BUT the name of the wicked shall rot."

Prov. 10:9 "He that walketh uprightly walketh surely: BUT he that perverteth his ways shall be known."

Prov. 10:17 "He is in the way of life that keepeth instruction: BUT he that refuseth reproof erreth."

Prov. 10:28 "The hope of the righteous shall be gladness: BUT the expection of the wicked shall perish."

There are so MANY verses in the book of Proverbs talking lot about the opposite ways, what just does, and what unjust does.

Same with 1 Cor. 3:15 tells us, two opposite conclusions for faithful servant and unfaithful servant at the judgment seat of Christ.

Read 1 Cor. 3:15 again, "If ANY man's work shall be BURNED, he shall suffer loss:" Who is of this man is speak of? This is speak of unfaithful servant. Of course, many religions include baptists are doing god works for the Lord. In Matt. 7:21-22 "Not every one that saith unto me, 'Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven'; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?' " Many religions include baptists are doing works and serve for the Lord. Christ knows many religions include baptists are doing works for Him. But Matt. 7:23 says, "And then will I profess unto them, 'I never knew you: depart from me, ..."

Why? Because, Christ said,

"...that work INIQUITY."

Christ does not care how good works we are doing for the Lord. Christ interests in our hearts show pure and holy toward Lord. The reason why many religions include baptists shall be cast away into everlasting fire, because of their SINS without repentance.

Let's continue on 1 Cor. 3:15b:

"...BUT he himself SHALL be saved; yet so as by fire."

Who is this person speak of? Faithful servant.

Baptists saying we are already saved at the moment after we accepted Jesus Christ by believed and repent of our sins. Does the Bible teaching that we are already saved- offically or automatically or already guaranteed at once? This teaching is called, 'Once Saved Always Saved' synonmous as 'security salvation'. I used to believe in it for a long time till 1 1/2 years ago, I no longer believe in it.

What about Acts 16:31? It says, "And they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou SHALT be saved, and thy house." Paul and Silas told to a soldier, that he have to believe on Lord Jesus Christ and he WILL BE saved, and his family. Word, 'shalt' is a future sense.

Being believED in Lord Jesus Christ does not mean that you are ALREADY saved at once. Bible teaches us, it promises us, we have to believe on Jesus Christ, and we will be saved. Our salvation will not be guarantee or automatically till when after we overcometh throughout our life till our death or Lord comes, then shall have victory according Matthew 10:22 and 24:13.

What about Romans 10:9? "That IF thou SHALT confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and SHALT believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, THOU SHALT BE saved."

Baptists use Romans 10:9 for soul winning method. They saying of this verse, if a person confess with mouth and believe with heart to Jesus Christ, then will be saved. In other word, if you confess to Jesus Christ, then you are ALREADY saved.

Romans 10:9 tells us, the promise to us, IF we will confess with our mouth and heart believe that God already raised Christ from the dead, WILL BE SAVED.

What about Romans 10:13? "For whosoever SHALL call upon the name of the Lord SHALL BE saved."

Baptists use verse 13 same as verse 9, use for soul winning method.

Verse 13 tells us the promise to us, IF we will call upon the Lord, WILL BE saved.

In other word, IF we stopped believing, stopped confess to Christ, by the time of our death, then will NOT be saved according to Matt. 10:22 & 24:13. That why, Matt. 10:22 & 24:13 command us, that we ought to be endure all the way throughout our life till our death or Lord comes, then we will be saved. OR.... IF we stopped being endure, quit serve the Lord, stop at the half way on the narrow raod, and get off narrow road, and going on the wrong road all the way till our death, then we will NOT be saved - Matt. 7:13-14 & Luke 13:24.

You mentioned of 'faithful servant' & 'lazy servant'. That is in Matt. 25:14-30.

Does Matt. 25:30 saying that a lazy servant will be release or free out of the outer darkness beyond the judgement day??

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

I forget to add to tell you.

Matthew 10:22 "And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end SHALL BE SAVED."

Verse 22 tells us, that we ought to be endure all the way throughout our life till we die, or Lord comes, THEN will be saved. OR...IF we do not endure throughout our life by the time we die, then we will NOT be saved.

Same with Matthew 24:13 says, "But he that shall endure unto the end, the same SHALL BE SAVED."

Matt. 24:13 tells the same as Matt. 10:22. Christ commands us that we ought to be endure all the way till we die, or Lord comes, THEN WILL BE SAVED. OR.... IF we do not endure throughout our lifetime by the time we die, THEN, we will NOT be saved.

Our salvation does not begin as automatically or being guaranteed at the moment when after we believed and accepted Christ saved. Our salvation will be automatically when after we make it all the way throughout our life till we die as we endure all the way.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

DPT;
Yes. I understand perfectly all you have said. Your error is that the passage in 1 Cor. 3:11-15 is NOT about 2 people.

All the other passages you have posted about faithfulness do not mean one loses salvation. They mean one loses the reward of entrance into the Kingdom. And round and round we go!

We are NOT going to agree here. That should be apparent by now. I only addressed you because of the similarity of our views in that we BOTH see clear warnings to believers to STAND FAST, WATCH AND PRAY, etc...

You say our salvation does not begin automatically when we believe. I say it does. And Scripture says it does.

"He that hath the Son hath life. He that hath not the Son of God, hath not life."

That is present possession.

"He that cometh unto me, I will in no wise cast out". Again, God does NOT disown His children. He will correct them, to be sure, but He will NOT disown them.

In HIS service;
Jim

In HIS service;
Jim

 

*If salvation (in eternity) does not begin until we "endure to the end", then no one living is now saved for sure. (They haven't reached the end.)
*If we are not saved we do not have the Holy Spirit for sure.
*If we do not have the Holy Spirit, we cannot possibly "endure to the end".


Is it not more probable that the "salvation" referred to is not eternal salvation, but rather being saved from some other kind of destruction.

We agree that endurance results in "salvation". But salvation from what? If you always interpret the word "saved" as meaning "saved in eternity", then how do you deal with the other verse I showed you about "abiding in the ship?" (Acts 27:31) Why do you switch and say, "No that is a different salvation in Acts 27:31"?

Might it be a "different salvation" here? Saved from chastening?

Then you have this order:

1)Saved in eternity/indwelled & empowered by the Holy Spirit.
2)Able to stand and endure till the end because of the Holy Spirit's work in us.
3) Able to be saved from the severe chastening of an angry jealous living Heavenly Father, who is no respecter of persons, and will render unto every man according to his deeds.


Lacy

 

I was reading Psalm 50 today, and it is a perfect picture of the judgment seat of Christ.

Psalms 50:5
Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice.

 

BBB,

The "brethren" are tricky. You ALREADY have obtained the inheritance by faith through the word of his grace. (Acts 20, 26) The Holy Spirit is the EARNEST of your inheritance. (Eph.1)

GRACE IS NOT WORKS, and the inheritance is by PROMISE, as Paul said. (Gal.3) The "brethren" miss the fact that the nation of ISRAEL, as a FIRSTBORN SON (Ex.4) has the promise of the land, as WE, the body of Christ (firstborn sons, Rom.8) have the promise of inheritance in HEAVENLY PLACES. (Eph.1-2) We'll be SEATED TOGETHER there one day.

You will INHERIT the kingdom of God AT THE RAPTURE (1 Cor.15), when you are "physically" translated into it, AS you were "spiritually" translated into it previously. (Col.1)

ALL MEMBERS of the body of Christ receive the inheritance at the gathering. (1 Cor.15, 1 Thess.4) It occurs YEARS before the MILLENNIAL KINGDOM due to the TRIBULATION, which occurs FIRST. (1 Thess.1,5)

The INHERITANCE of which Christ spoke concerned the LAND GRANT to Abraham (Matt.5), NOT the heavenly kingdom WHICH YOU INHERIT. (2 Tim.4, 1 Cor.15)

Hope this helps.

In Christ Jesus,
Carl

 

Carl;
Wrong again.

in HIS service;
Jim

 

BTW Carl;

It is improper netiquette to use all caps all the time. It is rude. It is considered YELLING!

It is not necessary.

Kindly use the bold feature if you want to emphasize a point or word.

K?

In HIS service;
Jim

 

av1611jim,

You quoted of 1 John 5:12 -"He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life."

You say,

You are partially correct. Notice word, 'hath' of KJV in Greek word means 'havING'. That means to be continue, to hold on, to have hope. Hope means being be confidence.

Titus 1:2 "In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began."

We must hold of our eternal life of our hope. Titus 1:2 tells us, God promises us even before the creation, that we have the hope of eternal life, that God cannot lie to us.

Hebrews 3:6 explains more clear on 'hope', it says, "But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, IF we HOLD FAST the confidence and the rejoicing of the HOPE FIRM UNTO THE END."

Notice word, 'hath' in Greek word means present-tense of 'having', not 'already have'. It tells us, that we having Christ, having eternal life. OR, a person do not having Christ, do not having eternal life according 1 John 5:12. This verse 12 tells us, of two persons of two opposites things.

Notice next verse - 1 John 5:13 says, "These things have I written unto you that BELIEVE on the name of the Son of God, that ye MAY know that ye have eternal life, and that ye MAY believe on the name of the Son of God.

Baptists use 1 John 5:13 for the 'proof' of believers' assurance of salvation, it relates with security salvation doctrine. That we have no doubt of have eternal life, because we can 'KNOW' that we have eternal life. Word, 'know' does not always mean no doubt, know for sure. 'Know' means having relationship. Throughout in the three epistles of John talk lot about our relationship, fellowship and walk with God. So, therefore, 'know' is speak of having relationship with God.

Word is an example of Adam and Eve in Genesis 4:1 "And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain,..." 'Knew' means sex, but, it is more than just sex, it is also speak of having relationship. Genesis 4:1 telling us the history that Adam already have relationship with Eve,

Also, there is another example for 'know' in Matt. 7:23 "And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from, ye that work iniquity."

Does this verse telling us, Christ does not know who is that person? No. Of course, we all know that Christ is omniscience. It means, Christ knows EVERYTHING from A to Z. This verse speaks of Christ have no relationship with that person, because of that person does not walk or fellowship with Christ, remaineth in wicked and sinning without repent. That why Christ shall tell to a person, that He does not know that perosn, shall send a person into everlasting fire. Also, there is another example of 'know'. In Matt. 25:12 - "But he answered and said, 'Verily I say unto you, I know you not." Because, Christ does not have relationship with that person, the reason is, that perosn does not walking in the light, remaineth in the dark with wicked. Being without have oil, it represents, do not have the Holy Spirit.

Often, we notice two letters - 'th' in the Bible of KJV. These are speak of present-tense & continuing. I use book - 'Interlinear Greek-English New testament' by Jay P. Green Sr. It is very good. It is helpful to understanding the literal translation, KJV was translated comes from Greek(Textus Receptus). I highly recommend you to have it.

You quote of John 6:37 "All that Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that comeTH to me I will in no wise cast out."

Baptists use John 6:37 for the 'proof' of security salvation.

Notice, word, 'comeTH' means coming in present-tense word. Christ promises us if any person continue coming toward Christ, Christ shall not removed that person away. same with John 10:27-29 promises us, IF any person who hear and FOLLOW Christ, Christ shall not removed person away from him. No person include Satan can removed person out of Christ's hand. OR... what IF a person stopped coming, endure, follow Christ, then, Christ might loosed a person out of His hand.

Lacy,

You say,

I am aware of baptists use Eph. 1:13-14 for the 'proof' of security salvation. It say, "In whom ye also trusted, after that are heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye bekieved, ye were slealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Which is the earnst of our inheritance UNTIL the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory."

They use Eph. 1:13 as 'proof' of security salvation doctrine, because we are already "sealed" by the Holy Spirit. Baptists teaching that, when we accepted Christ, then the Holy Spirti comes into our body, and sealed within us, cannot leave us till rapture comes.

Being 'sealed' does not always mean we are ALREADY saved at once. Holy Spirit can break the sealed. How?

Eph. 4:30 warns, "And grieve NOT the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed UNTO the day of redemption." It tells us, we do not hurt or sin against the Holy Spirit, because it dwells in us as 'sealed' we are sealed with the Holy Spirit TILLLLLL the day of redemption.

Being 'sealed' is the picture of "engaged".

We are engaged with Jesus Christ, that does not mean that we are already automatically or offically will marry Christ for sure. We will be marry to Jesus Christ when Christ shall come again at the second coming in Revelation chapter 19.

We notice many people are being engaged daily, but these do not mean they will be marry for sure. Being 'engaged' for a temporary time. Their average time of engaged about 6 to 9 months before get marry. Many times, they easily broke-off of their engaged. Christ might have broke-off engaged with us, if we sinned against Christ. Chirst already did divorced Israel in Jeremiah 3:8 "And I saw, when for all the causes whereby backsliding Israel committed adultery I had put her away, and given her a bill of divorce; yet her treacherous sister Judah feared not, but went and played the harlot also."

God has a holy reason to put her away as divorce because of their sinned against God.

Now back to Eph. 4:30 again. What 'the day of redemption' speaks of? It speaks of the second advent for our redmeption.

In Luke 21:28 says, "And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh."

This verse speaks of when we shall see the signs come to passed, then we shall look up for Christ's coming for our redemption.

Then the question is, what 'redemption' speaks for?

Romans 8:19-23 explain more clear, it speak of our redemption of our body, all our body shall be changed into immortality. That we are eager looking for. ROmans 8:19-23 fit with 1 Cor. 15:51-54 telling us, at the last trumpet, we all will chnage into immortality at the caught up.

Right now, our body is still mortal, means we are dying daily. Because we still have flesh, as it is result of sins comes from Adam's sin of Romans 5:12.

1 Cor. 5:1-5 exaplin more clear about the warning of Holy Spirit. Verse 1 warns us, if we sinned as "fornication". Verse 2 tells us, if any perosn who done as 'fornication' shall be taken away. Same with verse 3 tells us, about the Holy Spirit dwells within us. Verse 4 tells us, when Christ shall come again, we all shall be gathering together(rapture), and we shall be deliver from satan, and our flesh shall be destroyed, that our spirit may be saved in the DAY of the LOrd Jesus Christ. OR... in other word, if we continue sinning by the time Christ comes, then our spirit may NOT be saved.

That means, we are now being 'sealed' by the Holy Spirit, we do not sin or hurt against the Holy Spiriut TILL our day of redemptiojn at Christ's coming.

Right now, we are still mortal and flesh, we are dying. When Christ comes, our body all shall be changed into immortality to be glorfied with Christ, and will "marry" with Christ of Revelation chapter 19. Being 'marry' is speak of to be with the Lord forever and ever, no more separated again ever.

The example of King David and King Saul in the Old testament. When King Saul sinned against God. Prophet samuel told Saul, that the spirit of God already depart from him, because of disobedient.

King David said: "Cast me NOT away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit." - Psalm 51:11-12.

David, himself knew that the Holy Spirit already depart from him, because he have sinned against God. He sinned against God, for commit adultery, and murderered.

I remembered Late Dr. Curtis Hutson's sermon on "7 things sin against the Holy Spirit" in year 1992. He told us, we all have the same power of the Holy Spirit as D.L. Moody have. He said, Holy Spirit does not moving from us. We moved from the Holy Spirit. He signed of "backslide" in ASL (American Sign Language). I understood what he talked about while he signs for 'backslide' because he met me in a person, that I told him, I am deaf. That why, he signed it for me during sermon same time. I agreed with him on the Holy Spirit.

The Holy Spirit does not leave us, we leave from the Holy Spirit because of sinning against the Holy Spirit.

Luke 15:11-32 is a good example of backslidder. Father does not leave his son, but father's son leaves him in his own will of decision. Once, a son leaves his father, he become lost again according Luke 15:32.

John 10:27-29 warns us, IF we stopped follow Christ, He might loosed us out of his hand, if we leave him.

The Holy Spirit does not leave us, because Christ still always love us. But, Christ ALLOWS us to leave him, because of our will decision. Then, we could become lost again.

That why Matt. 10:22; and Matt. 24:13 command us, that we ought always be endure all the way till the end THEN we will be saved, that means our salvation will be offically or authomatically saved forever and ever, as our body shall chnage into immortality, and be with the Lord forever, and ever.

Matt. 25:46 & John 5:27 tell us, we done GOOD, unto the resurrection of LIFE. And we shall have eternal life at Christ's coming.

I know this post is very long. But it is very important for us to understand the doctrine of salvation according what the Bible saith. I hope you understand what I showing you of many verses talk about salvation.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

Certainly not by MY VERSES, or ANY VERSES which you could produce for the body of Christ.

 

DPT;
So according to you the verse should read thusly?

"He that having the Son having life. He that having not the Son of God having not life".

Nonsense brother.

In HIS service;
Jim

 

av1611jim,

Then, why cannot you accept word 'hath' of KJV in 1 John 5:12? If you think word, 'hath' of KJV is an error. Where does KJV translated this word comes from?

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!