Logical extremes

[preacher4truth]

As a supralapsarian myself the extreme view would be a fatalistic approach to evangelism. God already knows who His elect are, so why evangelize? Some have fallen prey to that wrong way of thinking by not considering the tension the Bible creates between God's decree and the means He has established to fulfill His decree. The means is the preaching of the Gospel. What keeps me from that view is the biblical truth that God has chosen the "foolishness of the message preached" (1 Cor.) to call His elect.

I am not going to answer for the other side. I will allow them to answer for themselves, if any choose to participate in this thread.

Good points. In answer to this MLJ says we do so because we are commanded to do so. Also we have Paul, who states his reasoning and resolve to do so, even when suffering imprisonment and other things, but continues to preach the Gospel for the sake of the elect; 2 Timothy 2:8-10.

 

[preacher4truth]

What are the logical extremes of your theological position? Do not consider the other side right now. Calvinists (or DoG holders who eschew the Calvinist label), what is the extreme of your position? How do individuals fall into that extreme and how do you prevent yourself from going there? Arminians (or non-Cals as some of you like to be called) what is the extreme you can fall prey to? How do some of your persuasion go there and what keeps you from following?

If there were a logical extreme it would be to disobey God's direct command to preach the Gospel and become a so called hyper-Calvinist. But doing so would be to deny my calling to preach, and my disobedience would then be at the least twofold.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

God gives life. God says He is Just. Why would anyone tell their kids God is a liar???

Your misreprenting what I'm saying again. What do you say to them when someone dies? Is God fair then? Or if someone is born mentally deficient? What do you say to them? Or if their mother gets cancer...or if the beloved pet is hit by a car?

 

[preacher4truth]

You should really explain this one. I am quite curious. What is different between a hyper calvinist and a calvinist?

Hello BJG,

Great profit would come from your understanding the two distinctions -- one is a position of truth and hyper is a position of error. Inability to distinguish between the two should help one to refrain from mislabeling another as hyper if honesty in debate is being sought in which I am certain you are striving for on BB.

So does the non-cal and arminian. Stop lying to yourself and others.

Your statement is untrue here. The non-cal and arminian do not believe this as has been seen on the BB and in real time. The extreme of this is Open Theism, and we have some proponents of that heresy on the BB.

As to some of your comments of yours (which I snipped to shorten this response) wherein specifically you talk about the 'whosoevers' being the elect 'within reformed theology' keep in mind that context of Scripture supports such a view. Elect = saved, it always has and always will and there is no distinction. Interpreting any passage of the 'whosoevers' regarding salvation, and the misused passage of 2 Peter 3:9 in the light of their contexts shows that the 'you's', 'uswards' 'whosoevers' 'any' 'all' are always addressing the elect/saved not all of mankind in general.

 

[Benjamin]

Your misreprenting what I'm saying again.

No, I am not. The subject you responded to was God's just judgment in salvation being given to all though the Love of Jesus. If you were off subject because of not following along don't try to put that on me. You have begun to cloud the issue ad made a false accusation toward my reply to you, but I'll briefly answer your questions.

What do you say to them when someone dies? Is God fair then?

That does not change the Nature in which God made the world. He had a "purpose" and created the world the way it is in Love. Yes, God is always Just.

Or if someone is born mentally deficient? What do you say to them? Or if their mother gets cancer...or if the beloved pet is hit by a car?

God was Just when He created the world, that is His Nature and He is unchanging. I would begin by explaining to children that God miraculously created us in His image and likeness and gave us human freedoms and part of us having these freedoms has to do with living in a world the way it is. I might talk about the freedom to name the animals, to gain knowledge, to grow our food, to love, cry, feel pain, happiness and sorrow, but all these things were for the Good in His Loving plans to bring us into the world. God did all of this in truth because He is Truth. We need to trust in Him and someday we will know why He allows these things to happen. But , I can tell you my answer will be the same that God is absolutely fair.

But, again, we are off subject.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

No, I am not. The subject you responded to was God's just judgment in salvation being given to all though the Love of Jesus. If you were off subject because of not following along don't try to put that on me. You have begun to cloud the issue ad made a false accusation toward my reply to you, but I'll briefly answer your questions.



That does not change the Nature in which God made the world. He had a "purpose" and created the world the way it is in Love. Yes, God is always Just.




God was Just when He created the world, that is His Nature and He is unchanging. I would begin by explaining to children that God miraculously created us in His image and likeness and gave us human freedoms and part of us having these freedoms has to do with living in a world the way it is. I might talk about the freedom to name the animals, to gain knowledge, to grow our food, to love, cry, feel pain, happiness and sorrow, but all these things were for the Good in His Loving plans to bring us into the world. God did all of this in truth because He is Truth. We need to trust in Him and someday we will know why He allows these things to happen. But , I can tell you my answer will be the same that God is absolutely fair.

But, again, we are off subject.

Ok then I answered your question prior to this ... how I teach my kids. I will let that stand because it proofs what you said....its gods justice....not ours. And if that is the case, its his world, his justice, his grace and mercy...not ours. Because if I interfered and if I was in control...it would be a very different place...but who am I to project. He is sovereign, not I.

 

[Aaron]

What are the logical extremes of your theological position? Do not consider the other side right now. Calvinists (or DoG holders who eschew the Calvinist label), what is the extreme of your position? How do individuals fall into that extreme and how do you prevent yourself from going there? Arminians (or non-Cals as some of you like to be called) what is the extreme you can fall prey to? How do some of your persuasion go there and what keeps you from following?

The logical extreme of truth is truth.

Maybe the question is, what are some of the less savory (from the point of view of man) implications of your position?

 

[Benjamin]

Ok then I answered your question prior to this ... how I teach my kids.

SO as per the original question, you wouldn't tell your kids that Jesus loves them when you put them to bed, you would tell them God isn't fair? Wow! Don't think even Luke is that proud of his system...

He is sovereign, not I.

Again, as per subject you seem to be having difficulty following, I guess I can take that as God being "Deterministically" Sovereign???...and you would tell your children along with that that He isn't fair. Hmm. You sure you don't want to think about this a little more???

 

[Luke2427]

So he leaves out "part" of the truth when he puts his children to bed. The part that only some are pre-selected to be able to confess the Lord Jesus Christ.

Thought so, you hold back some of the truth you are so proud of.

“If you take part of the truth, and try to make that part of the truth, all of the truth, then that part of the truth becomes an untruth.” ~ Adrian Rogers

IOWs, a lie.

Dance....

No Benji. I just didn't want to take up two pages on this post about what I tell my children concerning the Gospel. Yes I tell my children that every person who does not confess Jesus Christ as Lord will be destroyed.

I do not however take four hours every night before they go to bed to explain all of the intricacies of Soteriology.

Neither do I Go into all of the intricacies of sex when my five-year-olds ask me where babies come from.

I tell them that when two people love each other they come together and God gives them a child.

Now, only a moron would go around screaming- you're not telling the full truth, you're not telling the whole truth!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

No Benji. I just didn't want to take up two pages on this post about what I tell my children concerning the Gospel. Yes I tell my children that every person who does not confess Jesus Christ as Lord will be destroyed.

I do not however take four hours every night before they go to bed to explain all of the intricacies of Soteriology.

Neither do I Go into all of the intricacies of sex when my five-year-olds ask me where babies come from.

I tell them that when two people love each other they come together and God gives them a child.

Now, only a moron would go around screaming- you're not telling the full truth, you're not telling the whole truth!

He views DoG as a perversion and a lie to Gods nature...so what do you expect. That would make him an Anti Cal.

 

[Benjamin]

No Benji. I just didn't want to take up two pages on this post about what I tell my children concerning the Gospel. Yes I tell my children that every person who does not confess Jesus Christ as Lord will be destroyed.

That was not the question, and as predicted you have gone on to attempt to cloud the true issue raised.

It had to do with defining terms, extremes in one's position, and whether they (Determinist) were really as proud as they say of their system that they would "*simply" give the "whole" truth of it when putting their own children to bed.

I said nothing about going into deep soteriological explanations -> Mr. Strawman, and you unwittingly just went to prove my point, which I will not go on continuing to explain as it would obviously be a waste of my time (typical circular argument of the opponent to avoid coming to logical conclusions), but it goes to show you will not sticking to your view in 100% Truth and the point I made about that is true, as I predicted, which any competent reader that wants to go back and see will find.

Thanks

 

[Herald]

The logical extreme of truth is truth.

Maybe the question is, what are some of the less savory (from the point of view of man) implications of your position?

Well, that is partly the point I was trying to make; or at least bring out.

I already shared what the extreme positions are of Calvinism; i.e. hyper-Calvinism and all that entails. Arminianism has its extremes (also no Arminian or non-Calvinist has articulated them in this thread). The extreme Arminian/free will position leads to Open Theism or Universalism.

These extremes happen when a person interprets scripture without the tension and balance of other scriptures. They go off the deep end and it literally takes an act of God to bring them back. Sometimes they never come back.

We need to know the dangers of going off on theological tangents. We also need to come to peace with the fact that we are not going to have an answer for every theological conundrum. Sometimes the Bible clearly reveals itself on a matter; while at other times the matter is shaded in gray (mystery). We have a duty to study and come to the best understanding we can but not at the expense of violating other clear teachings of scripture.

 

[Luke2427]

That was not the question, and as predicted you have gone on to attempt to cloud the true issue raised.

It had to do with defining terms, extremes in one's position, and whether they (Determinist) were really as proud as they say of their system that they would "*simply" give the "whole" truth of it when putting their own children to bed.

It's not about deep truths- its about hard truths.

The hard truth about how babies get here is so hard that it cannot even be mentioned on this forum.

The hard truth about who gets saved and who does not get saved is too great for most children and, apparently ALL non-cals.

That's the point.

What a stupid question! do I tell my children, blah, blah, blah...

How utterly ridiculous!

What point could you POSSIBLY think you have made based on whether or not I tell my children certain things?

Do you tell your small children all the gory details about how you and your wife conceived them?

No. I hope not.

But just for the record- I do catechize my three oldest children (8,10, 11) and if you were to ask them why some people get saved and others do not they would say to you:

God, out of his mere good pleasure, from all eternity, having chosen a people to everlasting life, did enter into a covenant of grace, to deliver them out of the condition of sin and misery, and to bring them into a condition of salvation, by a Redeemer.

And they would say to you:

The decrees of God are his eternal purpose, according to the counsel of his will, whereby for his own glory, he has foreordained whatsoever comes to pass.

So, yes, I gladly teach my children these things when they are old enough to handle them.

 

[Inspector Javert]

How about the devil who roams to and fro on this earth seeking whom he may devour.
That is one of God's creatures on this earth. Does that apply to the devil?
But God elected to save JUST humans, right. He did not elect to save demons and Satan, correct?

Those are actually excellent questions that demand an answer LUKE. :wavey:
Perhaps a thread on that topic would be worthwhile.

For a Cal....those questions are not much of a problem, of course, but, it's quite the issue for an Arm. I think some solid answers are due in that respect....Hope there is more opportunity to speak on it later. I'll throw my hat into the ring, even though, I must admit, I haven't quite meditated on the answer from that perspective before.

Those are very legitimate questions indeed!

 

[Luke2427]

Those are actually excellent questions that demand an answer LUKE. :wavey:
Perhaps a thread on that topic would be worthwhile.

For a Cal....those questions are not much of a problem, of course, but, it's quite the issue for an Arm. I think some solid answers are due in that respect....Hope there is more opportunity to speak on it later. I'll throw my hat into the ring, even though, I must admit, I haven't quite meditated on the answer from that perspective before.

Those are very legitimate questions indeed!

I'll start a thread now.