Originally posted by doulous:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Actually, at least myself, believes that the choice is God's. And God does draw the person, but the prospective believer must believe willingly.
You mind if we chew on this statement?
You start off by saying that
"the choice is God's." Okay, so far so good. You would be invited to my next meeting of the "Calvinist Society."
What I am looking for in your statement is whether we define terms the same way. If so, we should be golden. If not, where does the breakdown occur? A question to ask about God's choice: can God's choice be thwarted by man? Or to put it another way, if God decides to do something can man interfere with God's decision? </font>[/QUOTE]2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward,
not willing that any should perish, but that "ALL" should come to repentance.
Mt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate:
for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Clearly, God's "Will" is not being "enforced".
Calvinist's believe in what is called the "effectual call." When God calls a person it is tantamount to them coming to faith. In fact, they must come to faith since it has been decreed by God. God may use a process to bring them to repentance or a sudden jolt, but God's will cannot help but be accomplished.
Mt 22:14 For many
ARE called, but few are chosen.
"IF' God made a difference in the calling, "Effectual", "IN-effectual", the above statement would not be "true" and a lie.
You wrote, "the prospective believer must believe willingly." Concur 100%. But how can man believe when the scriptures clearly teach he is A) Spiritually dead (Eph. 2:1) -and- B) Incapable of understanding (1 Cor. 2:14)? If you think about it that is a question that really has to be wrestled with. The Arminian believes that man has within him that divine spark we spoke about. He is not completely dead like Ephesians 2:1 says. He can understand just enough. He is not incapable of understanding as 1 Cor. 2:14 describes. Is there another answer as to how man believes? I think there is. At the risk of being redundant (from other posts) I'll explain it. When God "decides" to call a person to repentance, HE is the one who makes man able to understand. Remember this comment from your last post? "I don't know where Calvinists came up with this doctrine of regeneration before believing" This is how/why Calvinist's belive in regeneration preceeding salvation. In order for a person to spiritually understand the gospel they must pass from death to life. God regenerates (or changes) the heart.
The problem with this is the fact that faith in Jesus is the door through which everyone must pass "Before" they receive "Regeneration", faith is that part of being saved that God requires of man before he will save, calvinist has this sequence "Backwards".
Man is "dead in sin", because he can't pay the wages of sin, (death), but he isn't so totally depraved that he doesn't know/recognize "good/evil", God's call/law makes man aware of sin, and the choice to repent/continue in sin is the reason why there is a "judgment day" coming where God will judge man according to those choices man made,
Predestination eliminates God's judgment of man's choices, since man could not be held responsible for those choices.
Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
I happen to believe that regeneration, faith and justification are all part of salvation. Salvation is the term we use to describe someone who has come to faith in Christ. We normally view that as the finished work or the completion of the salvific process. Reformed Christian's wouldn't necessarily disagree although they would say that God first regenerates, man believes by faith and then God justifies. The work is almost instantaneous. It is one of those "blink of an eye" things.
Faith doesn't follow salvation,
Salvation follows faith,
Faith in Jesus comes before salvation.
Joh 8:24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins:
for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.
The "Spirit" of God will not come into a person unless it is "Welcomed", Jesus only "knocks" on the door, sovereign will doesn't force the door open.
Re 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice,
and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Romans 1 is clear that God gives some light of His existence to every person. And John 3:19-20 says that Light has come into the world, but men chose not to come to the light because they love their sin. Not because they can't come to Jesus.
Let's see whether the passages you quoted would shed some light on what Paul wrote in Ephesians 2 and 1 Cor. 2. First the passage in Romans.
Romans 1:19-21 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
For the record, Calvinist's believe that all men are individually responsible for their sin. No one, not those who will persih or those who will come to faith, are exempt from the penalty of sin. Of course the lost will die in their sin and suffer the due penalty while those who come to faith have their sins forgiven by Christ. No debate here. The issue is whether man has an innate knowledge of God that could lead to faith. In this passage Paul is describing men in general. Paul says that "because that which is known about God is evident within them". What is known about God? What is evident with them? Paul goes on to explain. "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse." God uses general revelation to reveal Himself to man. Even popular Arminian's teach this. Man gazes at the mountains and knows that there is a God. He sees the stars and realizes that these did not happen by chance. (A paranthetical aside: I believe most atheist's believe there is a God.) The key to this phrase is, "being understood through what has been made". Creation clearly reveals that there is a God. But man (in general) still doesn't believe? Why? "but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened." Because they were still in their sins they were foolish and there heart was darkened. I believe that every person has an innate knowledge of God, but not unto salvation. And in context this passage in Romans is not written to give men hope but to show the hopeless condition of man. Now, how about the passage in John?
Jesus dying for the sins of the whole world would have been rather useless unless the whole world was exposed to that light, would it not??
The many who are called but not chosen "Loved" the darkness rather than the light, and the reason why they were not chosen, they refused to "open the door" for Jesus/spirit to come in and save, therefore God is justified to condemn both them and the choice they made.
John 3:19-20 19 "And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their deeds were evil. 20 "For everyone who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
I agree that Jesus is the light. No problem with that. Why do men love the darkeness rather than the light? Because their deeds are evil. Why are their deeds evil? Evil deeds spring forth from an evil heart. Genesis 6:5 describes the generation of Noah as having evil in their hearts continuously. An important question to ask is, "why is man evil?" Is man evil because he commits evil deeds, or is man evil because his nature is evil? We have to be careful how we answer this question. If we say, "Man is evil because he commits evil deeds." then we have strayed into the Pelagian heresy. Pelagiaus taught that man was born with a clean slate and could lead a sinless life. Pelagius would have agreed that the odds were stacked against it, but he believed it was true. He denied original sin. If we say, "Man is evil because his nature is evil." then we are agreeing with the church orthodoxy that man does have a fallen nature caused by the sin of Adam. Here is a question: if a person dies in their sin and goes to hell, is their nature completely fallen? At that point even the Arminian would say, "yes." But even in that fallen nature they will have a knowledge of God. Philippians says, Philippians 2:10-11 10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those who are in heaven, and on earth, and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. While not believing and possessing a completely fallen and sinful nature, the sinner in torment will still have a knowledge of God. It is catch 22. Man hates the light because he is evil (fallen). Man commits evil acts and therefore hates the light. Both are equally true.
The "evil" of man is the body of flesh in which he is born, but his "consciousness" is still aware of "good/evil", totally depravity would eliminate man's ability to recognize "Good" or a God.
Ro 1:21 Because that,
when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
One "evil thought" and you become just as much a sinners as Adolf Hitler, so all have sinned.
I believe that one choses to believe with some degree of faith, and then regeneration fulfills that faith. Like the man that said "I believe help me mine unbelief" in Mark 9:24.
Jack, you quoted a passage that makes up the content of many of prayers to God. I can agree with Paul when he wrote, Romans 7:24 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
The flesh can't follow the law to prefection, but through "FAITH" in Jesus, the consciousness can.
Ro 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God,
purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
1Co 2:16 But we have the mind of Christ.
Calvin doctrine ties the sins of the flesh, with the consciousness of man, making the conscience as sinful as the flesh, but the flesh seek only to fulfil it's lust (evil) while the conscience seeks both "good and evil".
Ro 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing:
for to "WILL" (consciousness) is present with me;
but how to perform that which is good I find not. (can't fufill the law)
"Totally depravity" of flesh, YES, of the conscience, NO, the reason why death is once appointed to all flesh, but not to souls.
The story in Mark 9 is about a man who's son is possessed by a demon. The fathers statement in Mark 9:24 has more to do with his lack of faith that God can heal than it does in his believing Jesus from within his fallen nature. The man said, "I believe." What was he believing in? It can be argued that he believed in Jesus, that he had faith in Him. Was it salvific faith? It could have been. Or it could have been this type of faith, "I believe you are a great teacher and I have heard of the many miracles you have performed. I brought my son to you for healing but I really don't know if you can do it." I lean more towards the former, that this man believed on Christ through faith. I just don't see where this passage teaches that man has a innate knowledge of God that allows him to believe by faith.
Joh 3:19
And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
What's the condemnation of evil men, it's not predestination, but the fact that they saw the light and rejected it, just as Israel did, and just like Israel, if they had accepted Jesus, then Jesus would have accept/saved them, he died for he sin of the whole world that they "might be" saved, what applies to Israel, applies to the church, the plan of salvation doesn't change.
Hebrews 11:6 says that to come to God you must believe first. Romans 4:3 says that Abraham believed and is was counted to him as righteousness. Gal. 3:2 says that you received the Spirit by hearing and believing. Not the other way around.
We're back to my earlier comments. Man believes because God changes the heart and makes it possible for him to believe. Abram believed God because God first called Abram when he was in Mesopatamia. The emphasis was on God's calling, not Abram's obedience or belief.
You don't know the story of Abraham very well, he planned to go back home walking/talking with Isaac after he killed him, and God didn't reveal that to Abraham, "BY FAITH" he figured that out.
Honestly, I don't know where Calvinists came up with this doctrine of regeneration before believing.
Me either.
