Looking Back

[webdog]

Something else to chew on. Why does God determine for someone to switch from a non calvinist position to a calvinst... then back to a non calvinist again? I know many people like this, Johnb comes to mind. He was a staunch calvinist. Why would God play with men's minds like that?

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Helen:
[QB] No...LOL...it's biblical. I have seen some of the fruits of Calvinism and that also lets me know about the tree of that doctrine.

Any time a doctrine is taken to an extreme has bad fruits. If you take Arminianism or any free-will doctrine to an extreme, you get all kinds of whacked-out methods of "evangelism." You get views like Open-Theism where God doesn't know the future because man hasn't made his decisions yet.

There are also problems with Calvinism taken to an extreme. You get people who don't believe in ever sharing the gospel because they might share it with a non-elect person.

The key with any view is to stay biblical and to constantly be reforming your view to the Bible. This is actually the motto of the Reformers - Reformed yet always reforming. None of us have a corner on absolute truth. But, lest any of you think I'm wishy-washy, I also don't think we should be too eager to throw away our beliefs either.

 

[J.D.]

Originally posted by webdog:
Something else to chew on. Why does God determine for someone to switch from a non calvinist position to a calvinst... then back to a non calvinist again? I know many people like this, Johnb comes to mind. He was a staunch calvinist. Why would God play with men's minds like that?

I hate to give what may seem to be a trite answer to your question, but here is why Johnb is changing his mind or getting confused or whatever his issue is:

For JohnB's good and for God's glory.

You could come up with a thousand questions like this. Why did I spend 20 years teaching the arminian system, if God is in control? Why did he put me in an arminian church? Why did anything happen that happened? Why did you write that post? Why am I answering it? I don't know, but I garantee you that God knows.

 

[mima]

Helen's statements have a reasonableness to mankind's mind, but if they are correct, they would necessarily disapprove the absolute sovereignty of God.
Or put another way, God made a mistake when He said," I have chosen you of the world" maybe God meant to say, "you have chosen me."(JOHN Chapter 15 verse 19")

 

[Helen]

God is sovereign enough that He is not threatened by allowing, as a matter of HIS free choice, men to have choices which are free in their own lives. Yes, we do have a choice about choosing. In John 15:19, Jesus is talking specifically to the disciples, and their choosing is chronicled in the Gospels. Even so, one betrayed Him. So it truly is a matter of us choosing Him, which He has allowed us to do, in His VAST sovereignty.

Calvinists continually mistake the sovereignty of God for a total dictatorship, a sort of "1984" Big Brother. He's bigger and lovlier than that.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Helen:
Calvinists continually mistake the sovereignty of God for a total dictatorship, a sort of "1984" Big Brother. He's bigger and lovlier than that.

Micah 7:18-20 - "Who is a God like you, pardoning iniquity and passing over transgression for the remnant of his inheritance? He does not retain his anger forever, because he delights in steadfast love. He will again have compassion on us; he will tread our iniquities under foot. You will cast all our sins into the depths of the sea. You will show faithfulness to Jacob and steadfast love to Abraham, as you have sworn to our fathers from the days of old."

God is bigger and lovlier than any of us know. But when He describes Himself He doesn't typically mention anything about us or our choices, or whether we want His compassion or not.

 

[Helen]

God is bigger and lovlier than any of us know. But when He describes Himself He doesn't typically mention anything about us or our choices, or whether we want His compassion or not.

Yes, but when He is describing His relationship with us, that is EXACTLY how He describes it!

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Helen:
God is bigger and lovlier than any of us know. But when He describes Himself He doesn't typically mention anything about us or our choices, or whether we want His compassion or not.

Yes, but when He is describing His relationship with us, that is EXACTLY how He describes it!

Not in Romans 9, nor in Micah 7. Did you catch what He said in Micah? "He will again have compassion on us; he will tread our iniquities under foot." Whether we want Him to or not.

 

[Helen]

Let's let Bible explain Bible:

Turn, O Lord, and deliver me:
save me because of your unfailing love.
Psalm 6:4

But you, O God, do see trouble and grief;
you consider it to take it in hand.
Thye victim commits himself to you;
you are the helper of the fatherless.
...You hear, O Lord, the desire of the afflicted;
you encourage them and you listen to their cry,
defending the fatherless and the oppressed,
in order that man, who is of the earth, may terrify no more.
Psalm 10:14, 17-18

For the Lord is righteous,
he loves justice;
upright men will see his face.
Psalm 11:7

"Because of the oppression of the weak
and the groaning of the needy,
I will now arise," says the Lord.
"I will protect them from those who malign them."
Psalm 12:5

Who may ascend the hill of the Lord?
Who may stand in his holy place?
He who has clean hands and a pure heart,
who does not lift up his soul to an idol or swear by what is false.
He will receive blessing from the Lord
and vindication from God his Savior.
Such is the generaton of those who see him,
who seek your face, O God of Jacob.
Psalm 24:3-6

ALL of Psalm 25 testifies to the response of God to man in terms of compassion and man's seeking God. I could go all the way through Psalms and all the other books, but I just started skimming Psalms to answer you and didn't have to go far.

How can you say that God does not describe Himself in relation to man in terms of compassion and our choices? The Bible is full of exactly that!

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Helen:
How can you say that God does not describe Himself in relation to man in terms of compassion and our choices? The Bible is full of exactly that!

How can YOU say that I say that God does not describe Himself in relation to man in terms of compassion and our choices? What I said is that God does relate to us in terms of His compassion, and that He does not wait for us to respond before He becomes compassionate. It was while we were still sinners that Christ died for us. Please, read more carefully.


"Turn, O Lord, and deliver me:
save me because of your unfailing love.
Psalm 6:4" - Shouldn't that say "save me because I chose to be saved"?


"But you, O God, do see trouble and grief;
you consider it to take it in hand.
Thye victim commits himself to you;
you are the helper of the fatherless.
...You hear, O Lord, the desire of the afflicted;
you encourage them and you listen to their cry,
defending the fatherless and the oppressed,
in order that man, who is of the earth, may terrify no more.
Psalm 10:14, 17-18" - It is the afflicted and oppressed, the fatherless and the victims who God helps here. It says nothing about why He helps them.


"For the Lord is righteous,
he loves justice;
upright men will see his face.
Psalm 11:7" - Trying to use this passage for your purpose begs the question 'how do men get to be upright?' I say it is by God's mercy, you say it is by man's choice.


""Because of the oppression of the weak
and the groaning of the needy,
I will now arise," says the Lord.
"I will protect them from those who malign them."
Psalm 12:5" - Again, God protects the weak and needy from their oppressors. It says nothing about why He helps them.


"Who may ascend the hill of the Lord?
Who may stand in his holy place?
He who has clean hands and a pure heart,
who does not lift up his soul to an idol or swear by what is false.
He will receive blessing from the Lord
and vindication from God his Savior.
Such is the generaton of those who see him,
who seek your face, O God of Jacob.
Psalm 24:3-6" - You do know that this Psalm is talking about Christ, right? Finish the Psalm and you will see that it is.


Psalm 25 is about David's response to God's mercy, not about God's response to David. As a matter of fact, David addresses the point of why God should listen to this prayer, in verses 6 and 7:

"Remember your mercy, O LORD, and your steadfast love, for they have been from of old. Remember not the sins of my youth or my transgressions; according to your steadfast love remember me, for the sake of your goodness, O LORD!"

God, please don't respond on the basis of my choices. Please, please respond on the basis of you mercy and steadfast love! Amen!!