Looking for info: Partial Preterism

[Gorship]

Matthew 24:30
And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.

I have noticed that many people miss the meaning of "coming on the clouds." In popular Western theology, it is often thought to be a description of the physical return of Jesus to reign upon the earth. However, it is simply a picture of divine judgment -- in this case, judgment on the generation that rejected Jesus and put Him to death.

Notice the use of the "clouds" symbolism:

2 Samuel 22:7-12 (David describes God's deliverance from his enemies and Saul)
“In my distress I called upon the Lord,
Yes, I cried to my God;
And from His temple He heard my voice,
And my cry for help came into His ears.
“Then the earth shook and quaked,
The foundations of heaven were trembling
And were shaken, because He was angry.
“Smoke went up out of His nostrils,
Fire from His mouth devoured;
Coals were kindled by it.
“He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With thick darkness under His feet.
“And He rode on a cherub and flew;
And He appeared on the wings of the wind.
“And He made darkness canopies around Him,
A mass of waters, thick clouds of the sky.

Psalms 97:2-5 (God destroys His adversaries)
Clouds and thick darkness surround Him;
Righteousness and justice are the foundation of His throne.
Fire goes before Him
And burns up His adversaries round about.
His lightnings lit up the world;
The earth saw and trembled.
The mountains melted like wax at the presence of the Lord,
At the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Jeremiah 4:11-13 (Judgment upon Judea)
In that time it will be said to this people and to Jerusalem, “A scorching wind from the bare heights in the wilderness in the direction of the daughter of My people—not to winnow and not to cleanse, a wind too strong for this—will come at My command; now I will also pronounce judgments against them.

“Behold, he goes up like clouds,
And his chariots like the whirlwind;
His horses are swifter than eagles.
Woe to us, for we are ruined!”

Ezekiel 30:1-4 (Judgment upon Egypt)
The word of the Lord came again to me saying, “Son of man, prophesy and say, ‘Thus says the Lord God,

“Wail, ‘Alas for the day!’
“For the day is near,
Even the day of the Lord is near;
It will be a day of clouds,
A time of doom for the nations.
“A sword will come upon Egypt,
And anguish will be in Ethiopia;
When the slain fall in Egypt,
They take away her wealth,
And her foundations are torn down.

Nahum 1:1-6 (Judgment upon Assyria)
The oracle of Nineveh. The book of the vision of Nahum the Elkoshite.

A jealous and avenging God is the Lord;
The Lord is avenging and wrathful.
The Lord takes vengeance on His adversaries,
And He reserves wrath for His enemies.
The Lord is slow to anger and great in power,
And the Lord will by no means leave the guilty unpunished.
In whirlwind and storm is His way,
And clouds are the dust beneath His feet.
He rebukes the sea and makes it dry;
He dries up all the rivers.
Bashan and Carmel wither;
The blossoms of Lebanon wither.
Mountains quake because of Him
And the hills dissolve;
Indeed the earth is upheaved by His presence,
The world and all the inhabitants in it.
Who can stand before His indignation?
Who can endure the burning of His anger?
His wrath is poured out like fire
And the rocks are broken up by Him.

Zephaniah 1:14-15 (Judgment upon Judah for their idolatry)
Near is the great day of the Lord,
Near and coming very quickly;
Listen, the day of the Lord!
In it the warrior cries out bitterly.
A day of wrath is that day,
A day of trouble and distress,
A day of destruction and desolation,
A day of darkness and gloom,
A day of clouds and thick darkness…

This was really interesting and enlightening. Thank you.

Sent from my CLT-L04 using Tapatalk

 

[Lodic]

Note that at Pentecost -

Act 2:5 Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven.​

Does Mat. 24:14 require every nation on the planet to hear the Gospel? Or did the Gospel command given to the Apostles put into effect Jesus' statement? For the first thousand years of the Gospel Jesus couldn't return 'cos America hadn't heard the Gospel!?!?!

Unless you are a Mormon, of course . Thanks, I hadn't even considered that passage from Acts. The Gospel was definitely spread throughout the Roman Empire - the "world" of these first century Christians.

 

[kyredneck]

The Gospel was definitely spread throughout the Roman Empire - the "world" of these first century Christians.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a testimony unto all the nations; and then shall the end come.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. But I say, Did they not hear? Yea, verily, Their sound went out into all the earth, And their words unto the ends of the world. Ro 10:17-18

5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in the heavens, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel,
6 which is come unto you; even as it is also in all the world bearing fruit and increasing, as it doth in you also, since the day ye heard and knew the grace of God in truth;
23 if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven; whereof I Paul was made a minister. Col 1

25 Now to him that is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal,
26 but now is manifested, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known unto all the nations unto obedience of faith: Ro 16

Imagine this:

11 so shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. Isa 55

 

[robycop3]

When You See Jerusalem Surrounded.....

15 When therefore ye see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let him that readeth understand),
16 then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains: Mt 24

But they didn't see it. It didn't happen then.

20

But when ye see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that her desolation is at hand.
21 Then let them that are in Judaea flee unto the mountains; and let them that are in the midst of her depart out; and let not them that are in the country enter therein. Lu 21

That was the "days of vengeance" Jesus proclaimed against the Jews for all the murders of the righteous, from Abel onwards, up til that time.

 

[robycop3]

HRRRUMMMPPPP!!!!! WRONG!!!! THAT'S PHONY AS A FOUR DOLLAR BILL!!!!

The plain statement from scripture; "the great tribulation" is a long done deal:

1 for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

No, "this generation" hasn't yet come, unless it's this one. The great trib has NOT yet happened. Jesus said it'd be the worse set of disasters in history, and, since 70 AD, there have been many worse disasters than the Romans' destroying Jerusalem. Speaking strictly of the Jews, both Hadrian's expulsion of them from their land & the nazi holocaust were much-worse.

19

For those days shall be tribulation, such as there hath not been the like from the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never shall be.
30 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished. Mk 13

And again, "this generation" hasn't come yet unless it's this one.

22

For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lu 21

And the days of vengeance were accomplished. A coupla generations later, the Jews rebelled again, & Hadrian, the Caesar at the time, expelled them from their land & gave it to the Philistines. Proof: "Palestinian" is Latin for "Philistine". Just ask any Latin scholar pr professor. Today's Palestinians are largely descended from the Philistines, Israel's old enemy.

Once again, a preterist is left holding his hat as his guesswork is proven wrong again.

 

[robycop3]

Matthew 24:30
And then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.

I have noticed that many people miss the meaning of "coming on the clouds." In popular Western theology, it is often thought to be a description of the physical return of Jesus to reign upon the earth. However, it is simply a picture of divine judgment -- in this case, judgment on the generation that rejected Jesus and put Him to death.

Notice the use of the "clouds" symbolism:

2 Samuel 22:7-12 (David describes God's deliverance from his enemies and Saul)
“In my distress I called upon the Lord,
Yes, I cried to my God;
And from His temple He heard my voice,
And my cry for help came into His ears.
“Then the earth shook and quaked,
The foundations of heaven were trembling
And were shaken, because He was angry.
“Smoke went up out of His nostrils,
Fire from His mouth devoured;
Coals were kindled by it.
“He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With thick darkness under His feet.
“And He rode on a cherub and flew;
And He appeared on the wings of the wind.
“And He made darkness canopies around Him,
A mass of waters, thick clouds of the sky.

Psalms 97:2-5 (God destroys His adversaries)
Clouds and thick darkness surround Him;
Righteousness and justice are the foundation of His throne.
Fire goes before Him
And burns up His adversaries round about.
His lightnings lit up the world;
The earth saw and trembled.
The mountains melted like wax at the presence of the Lord,
At the presence of the Lord of the whole earth.

Jeremiah 4:11-13 (Judgment upon Judea)
In that time it will be said to this people and to Jerusalem, “A scorching wind from the bare heights in the wilderness in the direction of the daughter of My people—not to winnow and not to cleanse, a wind too strong for this—will come at My command; now I will also pronounce judgments against them.

“Behold, he goes up like clouds,
And his chariots like the whirlwind;
His horses are swifter than eagles.
Woe to us, for we are ruined!”

Ezekiel 30:1-4 (Judgment upon Egypt)
The word of the Lord came again to me saying, “Son of man, prophesy and say, ‘Thus says the Lord God,

“Wail, ‘Alas for the day!’
“For the day is near,
Even the day of the Lord is near;
It will be a day of clouds,
A time of doom for the nations.
“A sword will come upon Egypt,
And anguish will be in Ethiopia;
When the slain fall in Egypt,
They take away her wealth,
And her foundations are torn down.

Nahum 1:1-6 (Judgment upon Assyria)
The oracle of Nineveh. The book of the vision of Nahum the Elkoshite.

A jealous and avenging God is the Lord;
The Lord is avenging and wrathful.
The Lord takes vengeance on His adversaries,
And He reserves wrath for His enemies.
The Lord is slow to anger and great in power,
And the Lord will by no means leave the guilty unpunished.
In whirlwind and storm is His way,
And clouds are the dust beneath His feet.
He rebukes the sea and makes it dry;
He dries up all the rivers.
Bashan and Carmel wither;
The blossoms of Lebanon wither.
Mountains quake because of Him
And the hills dissolve;
Indeed the earth is upheaved by His presence,
The world and all the inhabitants in it.
Who can stand before His indignation?
Who can endure the burning of His anger?
His wrath is poured out like fire
And the rocks are broken up by Him.

Zephaniah 1:14-15 (Judgment upon Judah for their idolatry)
Near is the great day of the Lord,
Near and coming very quickly;
Listen, the day of the Lord!
In it the warrior cries out bitterly.
A day of wrath is that day,
A day of trouble and distress,
A day of destruction and desolation,
A day of darkness and gloom,
A day of clouds and thick darkness…

Sir, in this case, Jesus meant He is physically returning, from the sky, as He departed. Remember, He will be SEEN by every eye.(Rev. 1:7)

 

[robycop3]

Roby, all you have done is "prove" why you (and other futurists) hold your views.

We hold those views because they're the PROVEN TRUTH. Calminian, John of Japan, and I have presented FACTS, not imagination and/or guesswork.

What is said to @Gorship is exactly the way I see it. You obviously disagree with this view, but you won't let it go.

OF COURSE I won't let the TRUTH go!

The main point of Gorship's topic was to find out information on this viewpoint, and to ask whether it was accepted by Baptists in general. While you disagree with this view, I don't think you really understand it. Those who adhere to this eschatological view are the ones who understand it best.

I'm sure Gorship now realizes most of us Baptists do NOT believe that false doctrine, and if you REALLY understood it best, you'd drop it because you'd realize it's FALSE.

 

[Yeshua1]

Among Baptists, P.P. is found mostly in the Calvinist or the Reformed/Particular Baptist camps. I hold to P.P. It is important to note that there is a huge gap between Partial-Preterism and full Preterism. As a P.P. I still believe the second coming is imminent.

I would see more than the PP view tends to see it more in the reformed presby wing, as even Dr RC Sproul held to it in the end. Majority of Baptists tend to be Pre trib pre mil, and among Reformed Baptists, think historical premil as I now hold with is held more so then the PP viewpoint!

 

[robycop3]

Scripture and history provide all the proof needed. Seems like we've gone around this mountain before.

Yes, they do. But while you CLAIM to believe both, we hafta wonder how you can FULLY believe them & still believe preterism.

Again & again, I will remind you that Jesus proves partial preterism wrong in Matt. 24:29-30.

 

[Calminian]

Note that at Pentecost -

Act 2:5 Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven.​

Does Mat. 24:14 require every nation on the planet to hear the Gospel? ...!

Yes. Why? Because immediately after, Jesus will return.

 

[Yeshua1]

Hi All,

So in the process of testing my "IFB" beliefs I have held to for a long time. Eventually I had to question my beliefs in Pre-Trib/Pre-Mill dispensationalism.

I have to admit that Partial-Preterism seems to answer a lot of things that didn't make sense to me.

I suppose my question is;

Is partial-preterism embraced/known among baptist circles? not saying it has to be the most popular but I am curious if there are others who see it as an option.

Believe that the main proponent of PP was by Rusell, and look at the Last Days according to Jesus by DR RC Sproul for that!

 

[robycop3]

Note that at Pentecost -

Act 2:5 Now there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men from every nation under heaven.​

Does Mat. 24:14 require every nation on the planet to hear the Gospel? Or did the Gospel command given to the Apostles put into effect Jesus' statement? For the first thousand years of the Gospel Jesus couldn't return 'cos America hadn't heard the Gospel!?!?!

Nor had China, Japan, Australia, etc.

 

[Calminian]

Aren't you doing the same thing with oikumene? .....

No, I never said a word about oikumene. You, OTH, proclaimed kosmos as a worldwide indicator, then immediately took it back when you realized it didn't fit with your scheme.

You can't blame me for the one. The fact is kosmos does refer to the entire world. You can deny it all you want, but you know deep inside it's true. You also know, deep in inside (though you're trying to suppress it), that Jesus returns immediately after the tribulation, because Jesus himself said it. There is no gap between Rev. 18 and 19.

 

[robycop3]

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a testimony unto all the nations; and then shall the end come.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ. But I say, Did they not hear? Yea, verily, Their sound went out into all the earth, And their words unto the ends of the world. Ro 10:17-18

5 because of the hope which is laid up for you in the heavens, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel,
6 which is come unto you; even as it is also in all the world bearing fruit and increasing, as it doth in you also, since the day ye heard and knew the grace of God in truth;
23 if so be that ye continue in the faith, grounded and stedfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel which ye heard, which was preached in all creation under heaven; whereof I Paul was made a minister. Col 1

25 Now to him that is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which hath been kept in silence through times eternal,
26 but now is manifested, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, is made known unto all the nations unto obedience of faith: Ro 16

Imagine this:

11 so shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. Isa 55

The Gospel then went out into all the parts of the world KNOWN TO THE APOSTLES.

And, if the Gospel had then been preached to the WHOLE WORLD, how come Jesus hasn't yet returned??????????????

 

[Calminian]

I would see more than the PP view tends to see it more in the reformed presby wing, as even Dr RC Sproul held to it in the end. Majority of Baptists tend to be Pre trib pre mil, and among Reformed Baptists, think historical premil as I now hold with is held more so then the PP viewpoint!

it's definitely becoming the majority among conservative Christians. The reason is probably the clues that unfolding in history. Those his had adherents before 1948, the regathering of Israel in the these last days have opened some eyes, as has the formation of the European Union, and other super signs.

 

[Yeshua1]

it's definitely becoming the majority among conservative Christians. The reason is probably the clues that unfolding in history. Those his had adherents before 1948, the regathering of Israel in the these last days have opened some eyes, as has the formation of the European Union, and other super signs.

I still hold firmly with premil, but pre trib, not so much now.

 

[Calminian]

I still hold firmly with premil, but pre trib, not so much now.

What changed you from pretrib? To what do you hold now?

 

[Yeshua1]

What changed you from pretrib? To what do you hold now?

Either Mid trib, as can see the 2 witnesses as being types of the Church, or else post trib, as God preserved Israel during Plagues in Egypt can keep us!

 

[Lodic]

We hold those views because they're the PROVEN TRUTH. Calminian, John of Japan, and I have presented FACTS, not imagination and/or guesswork.

You holds those views because you are convinced by the "proofs" that you believe to be true; likewise, Preterists hold our views because we are convinced by the proofs and facts that we see. If there is any imagination or guesswork, it's from the Futurist view.

 

[Lodic]

Yes, they do. But while you CLAIM to believe both, we hafta wonder how you can FULLY believe them & still believe preterism.

Again & again, I will remind you that Jesus proves partial preterism wrong in Matt. 24:29-30.

I claim to believe the Bible to be 100% true and inerrant. I believe the prophecies of the Olivet Discourse were fulfilled in exact detail according to Scripture.