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Lord’s Prayer Updated
- Thread starter BibleVendor
- Start date
37818
Well-Known Member
KJV, Matthew 6:9-13, After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
At issue are how singular pronouns are distinguished from their plural. Most modern translation do not do so.
BibleVendor
New Member
All the Bible’s that we use today are updates of other updates of other updates from the original bible., without changing the core message. The Bible has been updated many times to make it clearer and easier for different generations to understand it, without changing the core message. If the original bible had not been updated, you and I, and everyone living today would not understand it. In our time, we have dozens of different bibles, but the core message is the same Every few generations, language evolves or changes, and so must the Bible. And there is no doubt, that in the future, more updates of the Bible will be made, without changing the core message. Different bibles use different words or phrases to say the same thing!
BibleVendor
New Member
May you please elaborate, or clarify, how and why the above post is a downgrade?
There are several translation issues with this "upgrade," whatever version it is.
In vv. 10-11, the verbs are all aorist imperatives. Whoever translated this assumed that the aorist is always past, but that is not true. The imperative in Koine Greek has no time significance. Therefore, "Your kingdom has come," etc., is a mistaken rendering. Since it is an imperative, to take it as a past tense would mean, "Go back to the past and...." That simply does not make sense. The aorist imperative is not a past tense, but has aoristic verbal aspect, meaning it refers to a single, one time event, regardless of time. It should be translated as a simple present request.
V. 12 goes off on a tangent and translates the aorist as a present active indicative, "You forgive us our trespasses," even though it is an aorist subjunctive in a conditional sentence with ean (ἐαν), "If you forgive...." So the "If" is totally left out. Not cool.
In v. 13, "lead" is an aorist subjunctive with the force of a present imperative, but the translation is a present active negation, changing the whole meaning of the sentence. Then with "deliver" we are back to the aorist imperative, which should be translated as a present request.
In v. 13 the verbs are again aorist imperatives, and should be translated as present requests.
V. 14 is actually a correct translation. But then a whole extra non-biblical sentence is added to the biblical text before the "Amen" (which is in the Greek). It is extremely dangerous spiritually to add to God's holy Word. I could add more critiques of the translating, but this should be enough.
"Biblevendor-shop.fourthwall.com" should immediately drop this from their products.
P. S. The "Lord's Prayer" is exactly that, a prayer, which means it is asking things of God. But this version has turned the whole prayer into statements, so thus it should no longer be called a "Daily Christian Prayer," as the website has it.
In vv. 10-11, the verbs are all aorist imperatives. Whoever translated this assumed that the aorist is always past, but that is not true. The imperative in Koine Greek has no time significance. Therefore, "Your kingdom has come," etc., is a mistaken rendering. Since it is an imperative, to take it as a past tense would mean, "Go back to the past and...." That simply does not make sense. The aorist imperative is not a past tense, but has aoristic verbal aspect, meaning it refers to a single, one time event, regardless of time. It should be translated as a simple present request.
V. 12 goes off on a tangent and translates the aorist as a present active indicative, "You forgive us our trespasses," even though it is an aorist subjunctive in a conditional sentence with ean (ἐαν), "If you forgive...." So the "If" is totally left out. Not cool.
In v. 13, "lead" is an aorist subjunctive with the force of a present imperative, but the translation is a present active negation, changing the whole meaning of the sentence. Then with "deliver" we are back to the aorist imperative, which should be translated as a present request.
In v. 13 the verbs are again aorist imperatives, and should be translated as present requests.
V. 14 is actually a correct translation. But then a whole extra non-biblical sentence is added to the biblical text before the "Amen" (which is in the Greek). It is extremely dangerous spiritually to add to God's holy Word. I could add more critiques of the translating, but this should be enough.
"Biblevendor-shop.fourthwall.com" should immediately drop this from their products.
P. S. The "Lord's Prayer" is exactly that, a prayer, which means it is asking things of God. But this version has turned the whole prayer into statements, so thus it should no longer be called a "Daily Christian Prayer," as the website has it.
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I beg to differ. First of all, the Bible was never "updated." I believe you mean "translated" here, not "updated."
Considering the languages, the Old Testament was given in Hebrew, and we have the complete Hebrew Bible in good manuscripts. I took Hebrew in seminary from one of the leading scholars in the language (James Price of fond memory, now in Heaven), and translate in Japanese every day from that Old Testament. The New Testament was originally written in Greek, and in college and seminary I took 19 credits of that language, eventually translating the whole Greek New Testament into Japanese. (God blessed my Japanese translation partner, "Uncle Miya" Miyakawa of very fond memory.) I now teach Greek at a Bible college, and my students come to understand the language just fine (if they diligently study)!
I just translated Daniel 8:1:
WTT Leningrad Hebrew OT, Daniel 8:1 בִּשְׁנַ֣ת שָׁל֔וֹשׁ לְמַלְכ֖וּת בֵּלְאשַׁצַּ֣ר הַמֶּ֑לֶךְ חָז֞וֹן נִרְאָ֤ה אֵלַי֙ אֲנִ֣י דָנִיֵּ֔אל אַחֲרֵ֛י הַנִּרְאָ֥ה אֵלַ֖י בַּתְּחִלָּֽה׃
Lifeline Japanese OT: １ ベルシャツァル王の治世の第三年に、以前私、ダニエルに与えられた幻に、もう一つの幻は私に現れました。
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BibleVendor
New Member
As long as you pray as if God had not answered yet or His will has not been done yet, you will never ever get anything from God. What you want from God will always remain in future forever, never to be attained.
Then God said, “Let there be light…. - Genesis 1:3
God did not say, there will be light. He said, let there be light now. God, spoke, confessed or prayed what He wanted to happen now & not in the future.
And there are more examples, of God saying, let there be this and let there be that in the book of Genesis. He did not say there will be?
…for I have made you a father of many nations.. - Genesis 17:5
God told Abraham, that he was the father of many nations, when Abraham was 100 years old, childless and his wife was barren. God did not say, He will make Abraham a father of many nations in future.? God said I am making you a father of many nations now. And you know what happened later, after God spoke what He wanted.
I have given you this land…. - Deuteronomy 1:8
God told the Israelites, that He had given them land, before they possessed it or saw it, and the land was occupied by other people? God did not say, He will give them the land, but He said I have given… Eventually the saw the land & possessed it
The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want…. - Psalm 23:1-6
Psalm 23 is a famous prayer by King David. Notice that King David, did not say, the Lord will be my shepherd? And David did not ask God to be His shepherd,?
He makes me to lie down in green pastures. He leads me beside the still waters - Psalm 23:2
Notice that David did not say, he will make me to lie down in the future? And David did not ask God to put him in green pastures? And David did not ask God to lead him beside still waters, but simply declared that God did that for him?
I could go on and on about Psalm 23, but you get the point.
Then God said, Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness… - Genesis 1:26
God created humans to be like Him and to operate like Him, on a lower level. Humans are not God and can never be God, but humans were made to be like God.
Therefore be imitators of God as dear children - Ephesians 5:1
If you are going to imitate someone, you will act like them in some way, but not exactly. We can never fully act like God, but we can act like him, in a small way.
So, if God declares or speaks, what He wants before it happens, there is nothing wrong, if we too do the same on a lower level.
There are many more examples in the Bible of people praying or speaking, what they wanted from God, rather than asking or begging.
Amen!
BibleVendor
New Member
Wisdom dictates that it is better to use a title that most people are familiar with and can relate to, even though it may not be the best or appropriate title.
BibleVendor
New Member
I would rather follow God and the Bible’s examples, than any human, just because he claims to be a scholar. History always repeats itself. During the ministry of Jesus on earth, there were many religious scholars & prominent religious leaders, who believed and thought the knew better than Jesus , the messiah!
BibleVendor
New Member
True, the Bible was translated into different languages from the original language, but after that over the years, for example the English version has been updated several times, as the English language has evolved or changed. No one today,. reads the Bible in the original English version . The English spoken today is not the same English spoken centuries ago, therefore the Bible has been updated to be understood by people living today. Anyone can update the Bible, as long as they don’t change the core message. We have dozens of different English versions of the bible, in our times, but the core message is the same.
Ben1445
Well-Known Member
The people that you are speaking to in this thread are not against different translations.
You are new here and have probably not been around every thread yet. If you do get around to reading some of the past threads, you will realize what I have told you.
The critique that was given to you is a fair answer to the presented “update.”
A good translation will always take the original manuscript and translate to the modern language. This is a good standard for translation. For a translation to be considered a good translation, the focus should be conveying what was said in the original.
Your statement was, more or less, that you did not care if the translation was accurate or not. Just so that you feel the core message is correct. How would you propose to know what the core message is, in order that we may determine updates to be correct?
I might just as easily say that the core message of Mother Goose nursery rhymes are the same as what God intended for us to have. It is too arbitrary a practice to accept updates without considering good translation.
Whoa, I never claimed to be a scholar, and I am not, though I have areas of expertise. That was you in your introduction, where you claimed to be a Bible scholar. I am just a professor (of Bible and ancient languages) and Bible translator. My son is a genuine Bible scholar, with a PhD and several scholarly books published, and many articles in theological journals. I think I know what a scholar is. So, why do you consider yourself to be a Bible scholar?
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Now you're making more sense. If you are talking about Tyndale's translation, it is true that no one today makes it their primary Bible version. However, the KJV is still the primary version read by 100's of thousands all over the world. It is still being read in many countries in Africa, Papua New Guinea, etc. It's still pretty easy to understand.
I would like you to address my objections in Post 8 to the "Lord's Prayer" version you posted. It seems to me to be a pretty egregious "update."
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canadyjd
Well-Known Member
But you aren’t following God or the bible’s examples, are you?
Scripture tells us not to add to, nor take away from the words of the Bible. You have done both.
You are correct that history repeats itself. History is full of people that rejected the truth of God’s Word and changed scripture to suit their beliefs.
Looks like another one has revealed himself. I hope I’m wrong, but your statements support that belief.
Peace to you
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
…….
Please accept it
Peace to you
And John of Japan has demonstrated to you through sound biblical analysts how your rendering fundamentally changes the core message of the prayer.
Please accept it
Peace to you