Lord, Lord did we not do...?

[bmerr]

James,

bmerr here. Like I said, I don't pretend to have it "all figured out". As far as the thousand years being figurative, someone has made the point that "God owns the cattle on a thousand hills, so do we have to go out and find which ones are His, and which aren't?" I'm just trying to view a passage of Scripture that is "tricky" in light of one that is pretty plain.

I'm not sure how 1 Pet 3:19 would figure into that. It very well may. Verse 20 seems to hint that the "spirits in prison" refer to the pre-flood lost who rejected the Spirit of God as He spoke through Noah. 2 Pet 2:5 speaks of Noah being a "preacher of righteousness".

This would require that the spirits in prison were not in prison when Noah preached to them, but were in prison waiting Judgement as a result of their rejecting God's word through Noah. That may be stretching a bit. What do you think?

Also, since the righteous and the wicked will be raised at the resurrection, (which is covered in John 5:29-29), I don't see why they would be mentioned separately in verse 25.

Besides that, the dead in verse 25 are said to "live" as a result of hearing the voice of the Son of God, whereas the wicked will enter the second death at the Judgement.

Those beheaded would be those persecuted to death for the testimony of Christ. The text only has souls reigning, so I can't see this as being post-resurrection from the dead.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[James_Newman]

Why should we assume that the verse is tricky? The entire bible is looking forward to a time when God will reign on the earth. We are told to pray 'thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven'. Is that not going to happen?

Souls does not always mean the discorporate soul without a body, but in this case I believe this may be what he is saying. However we are told that these souls live for a thousand years, they are resurrected which would have put them back in a body. The saducees denied a physical resurrection and Jesus rebuked them. The rest of the dead 'lived' not again until the thousand years was finished. They will not be raised up into their bodies until the last day, at the great white throne, which is exactly what Jesus promised to them that believed.

I don't think the resurrection would be referring to salvation by faith. Jesus called this being born again. Our old man is dead, and will not be brought to life again. Instead we had to be created a new creature.

 

[bmerr]

James,

bmerr here. Well, Jesus' disciples were taught to pray "thy kingdom come", because it hadn't come yet. For us to pray that today would be to pray for something to come that has been here for nearly 2000 years.

The kingdom is the church, and it came on Pentecost of Acts 2. I'm not aware of anywhere that the Bible speaks of God/Christ reigning on earth. Jesus said His kingdom was "not of this world" (John 18:36).

I think the dead hearing and living in John 5:25 is the "first resurrection" of Rev 20:5. When one obeys the gospel and is baptized, he is buried in the likeness of Jesus' death, and then raised to walk in newness of life (Rom 6:4). I believe this is the same as being "born of water" (John 3:5), and is in response to believing the gospel, which is the same as being "born of the Spirit".

Paul said he was crucified with Christ, nevertheless, he lived (Gal 2:20).

Those in Christ through baptism (Gal 3:27) are "new creatures"; old things are passed away, and all things are become new (2 Cor 5:17).

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years" (Rev 20:6).

That sounds like Christians to me.

In Christ,

bmerr

 

[James_Newman]

Originally posted by bmerr:
James,

bmerr here. Well, Jesus' disciples were taught to pray "thy kingdom come", because it hadn't come yet. For us to pray that today would be to pray for something to come that has been here for nearly 2000 years.

The kingdom is the church, and it came on Pentecost of Acts 2. I'm not aware of anywhere that the Bible speaks of God/Christ reigning on earth. Jesus said His kingdom was "not of this world" (John 18:36).

Now you just have to explain why you are not reigning with Him, and why His will is not done on earth as it is in heaven... unless you believe killing unborn babies and such is His will?

I think the dead hearing and living in John 5:25 is the "first resurrection" of Rev 20:5. When one obeys the gospel and is baptized, he is buried in the likeness of Jesus' death, and then raised to walk in newness of life (Rom 6:4). I believe this is the same as being "born of water" (John 3:5), and is in response to believing the gospel, which is the same as being "born of the Spirit".

Paul said he was crucified with Christ, nevertheless, he lived (Gal 2:20).

Those in Christ through baptism (Gal 3:27) are "new creatures"; old things are passed away, and all things are become new (2 Cor 5:17).

"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years" (Rev 20:6).

That sounds like Christians to me.

In Christ,

bmerr

It sounds like obedient Christians to me. They are blessed and holy. Jesus commanded us to be holy as God is holy. Christians who are committing sin are not holy, regardless of whatever they may have been told from the pulpit.

 

[James_Newman]

One other thing, Jesus told his disciples to go and teach all nations to observe the things He commanded them. If the Lord commanded His disciples to pray that way, that is how they were to teach others to pray... When did the Lord change the Lord's prayer?

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Hope of Glory:
1 Corinthians 3:14-15: If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Paul writing to the saints in the church of Corinth reminds them that an unforgiven, rebellion-embracing backslider is not in fact "saved" --

1Cor 6
7 Actually, then, it is already a defeat for you, that you have lawsuits with one another. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be defrauded?
8 On the contrary, you yourselves wrong and defraud. You do this even to your brethren.

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.
11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

 

[BobRyan]

Christ speaking to the HIS OWN - His chosen people reminding them that BAD fruits will and GOOD trees don't mix and wonpt be in heaven --

Matt 7
17 ""So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
18 ""A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19 "" Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20 ""So then, you will know them by their fruits.

21 "" Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

 

[Hope of Glory]

The passages that you are pointing out are referring to the Kingdom, not common salvation.

In 1 Corinthians 6:9, who is he talking to? He's talking to saved people. Unrighteous Christians will not inherit the Kingdom. Inheritance is a family matter. Do you inherit anything from the stranger down the street?

Salvation is an event. Justification is a process.

Bearing fruit is works. Is your salvation dependent upon your works?

To see the Kingdom, you must be born from above; you must be saved. To enter the Kingdom - to rule and to reign with him - you must follow that up with something.

While you cannot lose your everlasting salvation, you can lose your life in the age to come. Your works can be burned up, but you're still saved.

As a side note, a will is simply a piece of paper that is absolutely useless until someone dies.