Lord Really Means Deity?

[TCGreek]

Today I was reading from The Moody Handbook of Theology (2008), When I came across the following comment on Romans 10:9:

"Confessing of Christ as Lord identifies Christ as deity; the issue is not concerning His lordship" (p. 343).

For the life of me, I cannot find myself accepting this definition of the Greek kyrios, which is behind “Lord.” What then does Jesus mean in Luke 6:46?

“Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and do not do what I say? (TNIV)

Should we read this verse instead as:

“Why do you call me, ‘Deity, Deity, and do not what I say?”

This simply will not work. Notice the issue is about a person’s life not lining up with their profession of kyrios, kyrios, “Lord, Lord.”

Jesus says that to confess him as “Lord” means recognizing his lordship and doing what he says. But once again bad theology wishes to trump common sense reading—for lack of a better expression.

 

[StefanM]

I think the background for the idea of Lord= deity is the LXX.

I don't think that you can make the statement that Lord always implies deity, though.

I do think that in Romans 10:9, though, the issue of deity is present. However, I believe that authority/lordship is also in play. As God, he deserves our submission.

 

[Brandon C. Jones]

This passage most likely refers to Christ being declared as Lord by his resurrection (cf. Rom 1:4). One could perhaps infer what Paul thinks of Christ's deity from such claims in Romans. One could also infer that such lordship includes obeying his commands. I can add that there is good evidence that Paul utilizes "Lord" to mean YHWH in 1 Corinthians 8:6 (playing off a famous passage in Deuteronomy), but that does not necessarily carry over to Romans 10 or to the passage you mention from the Gospels.

 

[TCGreek]

Yeah, Paul definitely has the LXX in mind but with the full force of YHWH, which includes authority.

 

[jcjordan]

I've been reading "The Gospel According to Jesus", and this argument form the non LS camp was brought up. According to JohnnyMac, if the word "Lord" in those passages wants to be defined as meaing "deity". He says that actually helps bolster the LS position, for who has more authority than deity?

 

[skypair]

Today I was reading from The Moody Handbook of Theology (2008), When I came across the following comment on Romans 10:9:

"Confessing of Christ as Lord identifies Christ as deity; the issue is not concerning His lordship" (p. 343).

For the life of me, I cannot find myself accepting this definition of the Greek kyrios, which is behind “Lord.” What then does Jesus mean in Luke 6:46?

Does it help to consider Eph 4:3-6? "There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all." I believe that the true church of the saved has these foundational beliefs right from the start of their new birth. But notice that "one Lord" is separate from "one God and Father of us all."

I think I will meditate on this as well, TC.

skypair

 

[Amy.G]

To recognize Jesus as Lord is to recognize Him as God (deity). God has all authority and is to be obeyed.

Just a simple minded thought.

 

[nunatak]

Yeah, Paul definitely has the LXX in mind but with the full force of YHWH, which includes authority.

This amazes me! Did Paul actually say that we must believe that Jesus is Yahweh?

Now, I am very new to the doctrine of the trinity. How does this verse agree with the Trinity?

 

[MNJacob]

For some of you who are just catching up with this. The primary issue is that the Septuagint, or LXX, as TC has posted, translates YHWH as "kurios". When we realize that over a third of the OT quotes in the NT are from the LXX (the writers in Greek quoted a translation that they and their readers were familiar with), there is no question that the connection of Jesus and kurios in the NT is a clear declaration of deity.

If we reference a non-biblical source and context, this is the problem that early Christians had with the requirement to confess "Caesar is lord". There was no question that Caesar was an earthly "lord", but the the statement was intended to be a confession that Caesar was a "god", which just doesn't sit with Christian or Jewish beliefs. That old first commandment just doesn't allow it.

You do have to watch the context, but to me lord = God is always a possibility in the NT.

English can be such a pitiful language to catch all of the nuances of "God", god, lord and LORD from the Hebrew. It really

 

[TCGreek]

This amazes me! Did Paul actually say that we must believe that Jesus is Yahweh?

Now, I am very new to the doctrine of the trinity. How does this verse agree with the Trinity?

To believe that Jesus as Lord=YHWH, means believing that he is both God of your life.

 

[skypair]

TC,

Another thought occurred to me but I wanted to hear you response to my first comments first.

The second thought I had is this: The OT saints knew "the Lord" as coming Messiah. David said, "The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool." Psa 110:1 In this we see that Paul also acknowledges that Jesus is Messiah -- Savior.

There are many other passages in the OT to which I believe Paul is referring to the fact that we must believe that Jesus is the OT "deity" that they knew as Messiah.

skypair

 

[John of Japan]

The semantic range of the Greek kurios does not normally extend to "God," whatever the translators of the LXX decided. Consider the statement of Thomas in John 20:28: "My Lord and my God!"

 

[TCGreek]

The semantic range of the Greek kurios does not normally extend to "God," whatever the translators of the LXX decided. Consider the statement of Thomas in John 20:28: "My Lord and my God!"

Hey John, but I'm not totally dismissive of kyrios=YHWH in Rom 10:9.

But I believe Thomas is saying, "Master and God" in John 20:28.

 

[John of Japan]

Hey John, but I'm not totally dismissive of kyrios=YHWH in Rom 10:9.

But I believe Thomas is saying, "Master and God" in John 20:28.

TC, in order to have such a departure from the normal semantic range, you have to have something special in the context, like a quote from the LXX. I don't see anything like that in the context of Rom. 10:9. In 10:16 you have "Lord" from the LXX, but the original Hebrew in Is. 53:1 doesn't have it.

The Romans would have been sophisticated readers. (Anyone has to be to read Romans!) They would have known the Greek well. I don't have time right now to check the Perseus database, but I highly doubt if there was any classical usage of kurios as "God." At any rate, the abridged Liddell-Scott doesn't have it.

 

[TCGreek]

TC, in order to have such a departure from the normal semantic range, you have to have something special in the context, like a quote from the LXX. I don't see anything like that in the context of Rom. 10:9. In 10:16 you have "Lord" from the LXX, but the original Hebrew in Is. 53:1 doesn't have it.

The Romans would have been sophisticated readers. (Anyone has to be to read Romans!) They would have known the Greek well. I don't have time right now to check the Perseus database, but I highly doubt if there was any classical usage of kurios as "God." At any rate, the abridged Liddell-Scott doesn't have it.

Then you take kyrios at Rom 10:9 to mean "Master," correct?

Regarding Is 53:1 in the LXX, you're right, but YHWH is in the Heb. What say ye?

 

[John of Japan]

Then you take kyrios at Rom 10:9 to mean "Master," correct?

Okay, I'm back from evangelism with Habazaki San. Yes, I take it as "Master" there. I don't see any other way to take it linguistically. Another possibility is if you can prove Paul used it as "God" elsewhere in his corpus, but I can't think of any such usage right off hand. 1 Cor. 1:1-5 would have been the perfect opportunity, but nope, Paul used both God and Lord there, but not as synonyms.

Regarding Is 53:1 in the LXX, you're right, but YHWH is in the Heb. What say ye?

Well, YHWH isn't in the Hebrew at the beginning of the verse where the LXX has Kurios, and that is the only part Paul quotes in Rom. 10. The LXX translators supplied the word there. So it's a stretch to put thoughts into Paul's mind when he didn't quote the rest of the Isaiah verse anywhere in his letters that I can find. However, John 12:38 quotes the whole verse....

Now, on Perseus they have the Liddel-Scott-Jones lexicon, and it has this under definition B, the substantive:

"3. of gods, esp. in the East, [FONT=Sgreek,Sgreek Fixed,Sgreek Medium]Seknebtu=nij o( k. qeo/j [/FONT]PTeb.284.6 (i B.C.); [FONT=Sgreek,Sgreek Fixed,Sgreek Medium]Kro/noj k. [/FONT]CIG4521 (Abila, i A.D.); [FONT=Sgreek,Sgreek Fixed,Sgreek Medium]Zeu\j k. [/FONT]Supp.Epigr.2.830 (Damascus, iii A.D.); [FONT=Sgreek,Sgreek Fixed,Sgreek Medium]k. Sa/rapij [/FONT]POxy.110.2 (ii A.D); [FONT=Sgreek,Sgreek Fixed,Sgreek Medium]h( k. )/Artemij [/FONT]IG 4.1124 (Tibur, ii A.D.); of deified rulers, [FONT=Sgreek,Sgreek Fixed,Sgreek Medium]tou= k. basile/oj qeou= [/FONT]OGI86.8 (Egypt, i B.C.); [FONT=Sgreek,Sgreek Fixed,Sgreek Medium]oi( k. qeoi\ me/gistoi [/FONT], of Ptolemy XIV and Cleopatra, Berl.Sitzb.1902.1096: hence, of rulers in general, [FONT=Sgreek,Sgreek Fixed,Sgreek Medium]basileu\j (Hrw/dhj k. [/FONT]OGI415 (Judaea, i B.C.); of Roman Emperors, BGU1200.11 (Augustus), POxy.37 i 6 (Claudius), etc. "

So you have kurios and theos being used together in a number of passages where kurios is a title given to the theos, but evidently not as a synonym. If you want more info than this, you're on your own--you'll have to do a Ph. D. thesis on it, since the word occurs a huge number of times in the various Greek sources. I started to check it out, but only got as far as a few times in Aeschylus before I decided I didn't want to check 1850 sources! :smilewinkgrin:

 

[TCGreek]

Okay, I'm back from evangelism with Habazaki San. Yes, I take it as "Master" there. I don't see any other way to take it linguistically. Another possibility is if you can prove Paul used it as "God" elsewhere in his corpus, but I can't think of any such usage right off hand. 1 Cor. 1:1-5 would have been the perfect opportunity, but nope, Paul used both God and Lord there, but not as synonyms.

Well, I trust that you had a blessed day in the field.

So not even 1 Cor 8:6 going to work?

Well, YHWH isn't in the Hebrew at the beginning of the verse where the LXX has Kurios, and that is the only part Paul quotes in Rom. 10. The LXX translators supplied the word there. So it's a stretch to put thoughts into Paul's mind when he didn't quote the rest of the Isaiah verse anywhere in his letters that I can find. However, John 12:38 quotes the whole verse....

Yes, it's at the end of the verse. But must have quoted the LXX on Isa 53:1 for a reason, correct?

Now, on Perseus they have the Liddel-Scott-Jones lexicon, and it has this under definition B, the substantive:

"3. of gods, esp. in the East, [FONT=Sgreek,Sgreek Fixed,Sgreek Medium]Seknebtu=nij o( k. qeo/j [/FONT]PTeb.284.6 (i B.C.); [FONT=Sgreek,Sgreek Fixed,Sgreek Medium]Kro/noj k. [/FONT]CIG4521 (Abila, i A.D.); [FONT=Sgreek,Sgreek Fixed,Sgreek Medium]Zeu\j k. [/FONT]Supp.Epigr.2.830 (Damascus, iii A.D.); [FONT=Sgreek,Sgreek Fixed,Sgreek Medium]k. Sa/rapij [/FONT]POxy.110.2 (ii A.D); [FONT=Sgreek,Sgreek Fixed,Sgreek Medium]h( k. )/Artemij [/FONT]IG 4.1124 (Tibur, ii A.D.); of deified rulers, [FONT=Sgreek,Sgreek Fixed,Sgreek Medium]tou= k. basile/oj qeou= [/FONT]OGI86.8 (Egypt, i B.C.); [FONT=Sgreek,Sgreek Fixed,Sgreek Medium]oi( k. qeoi\ me/gistoi [/FONT], of Ptolemy XIV and Cleopatra, Berl.Sitzb.1902.1096: hence, of rulers in general, [FONT=Sgreek,Sgreek Fixed,Sgreek Medium]basileu\j (Hrw/dhj k. [/FONT]OGI415 (Judaea, i B.C.); of Roman Emperors, BGU1200.11 (Augustus), POxy.37 i 6 (Claudius), etc. "

So you have kurios and theos being used together in a number of passages where kurios is a title given to the theos, but evidently not as a synonym. If you want more info than this, you're on your own--you'll have to do a Ph. D. thesis on it, since the word occurs a huge number of times in the various Greek sources. I started to check it out, but only got as far as a few times in Aeschylus before I decided I didn't want to check 1850 sources! :smilewinkgrin:

But the title kyrios must stand for something. What say ye?

Thanks for the info, again.

 

[John of Japan]

Well, I trust that you had a blessed day in the field.

So not even 1 Cor 8:6 going to work?

Nope. Look at v. 5 which clearly distinguishes "gods" and "lords." :smilewinkgrin:

Yes, it's at the end of the verse. But must have quoted the LXX on Isa 53:1 for a reason, correct?

Well, can you prove that the quote is there to equate "Lord" with "God?" I'll look forward to your Ph. D. thesis. :type:

But the title kyrios must stand for something. What say ye?

Thanks for the info, again.

Yep. It stands for "master."

Catch you later. I have to go to the church and do Bible institute work, then do a Bible study with Usuki San. :wavey:

 

[TCGreek]

Nope. Look at v. 5 which clearly distinguishes "gods" and "lords." :smilewinkgrin:

You're right.

Well, can you prove that the quote is there to equate "Lord" with "God?" I'll look forward to your Ph. D. thesis. :type:

Quite a duanting task, I say. :smilewinkgrin:

Yep. It stands for "master."

Ok.

Catch you later. I have to go to the church and do Bible institute work, then do a Bible study with Usuki San. :wavey:

All the best in your ventures.