Lordship’s “Turn From Sin” FOR Salvation

[Havensdad]

Also,

Notice the TYPICAL definition of "faith" as understood in the Jewish mind, demonstrated by James in verse....

Jas 2:23 and the Scripture was fulfilled that says, "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness"--and he was called a friend of God.


WHAT?! He just said Abraham "did" something. Here it is just saying he "believed God". This is the confusion brought in by modern evangelicals. In Judaism belief was determined by your actions. If someone said "Jump, I'll catch you", and you DID NOT jump, you didn't believe them, regardless of what you said or how you felt. This culture is the culture Jesus, Paul, James, Peter, etc. was raised in, and is how we must interpret the word "believe".

 

[skypair]

No "work of faith" brings about salvation, at least in the way you are speaking of it.

Let me give you an example of what Paul is speaking of when He talks of "works" which were not "of Him", which showed His faith was not "in vain"....

See, now I would see YOU choosing to feed the man and take him to the hospital. And I KNOW you are not saying that you are God.

By the same token, it would be YOU who needed to "confess with the mouth" what you believe in your heart in order to be saved. Your explanations either 1) put you in the place of God or 2) shroud the truth in false humility and mysticism.

The fact is that Christ must do His work "through" us. We, according to Him, will do works "greater than" His! But our choices are critical elements to His hope for us and for the world. Indeed, our presence, not His, restrains antichrist from revealing himself.

Jas 2:17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.

Which only confirms that there is a "work of faith" required for salvation -- else you are "dead," right? Calvinism is merely confusing "works" with "works of the law" instead of what those works really must be, "works of faith."

I really appreciate your deliberations on this issue, though. Do you see the 'disconnect' Calvinism puts between faith that works and faith that is in vain? Even in salvation, there is a "work" that keeps us from being "dead."

skypair

 

[Havensdad]

See, now I would see YOU choosing to feed the man and take him to the hospital. And I KNOW you are not saying that you are God.

You can "see" whatever you wish, but this is clearly what Paul describes in multiple places. When we as Christians do good things, it is God doing them through us. When we do things we shouldn't, it is the "old man" doing them, not us. This is the way Paul speaks. How you choose to "see" it, makes no consequence.

By the same token, it would be YOU who needed to "confess with the mouth" what you believe in your heart in order to be saved.

Nope. Faith is a gift of God. Scripture says point blank that you are absolutely wrong...

1Co 12:3 Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says "Jesus is accursed!" and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" except in the Holy Spirit.

Your explanations either 1) put you in the place of God or 2) shroud the truth in false humility and mysticism.

Or 3, simply make me a biblically defined believer. God does work through us. When we do good works (feeding the Homeless) it is God doing work through us. I cannot even understand how someone who has actually read the bible can argue with this.

Rom 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

The fact is that Christ must do His work "through" us. We, according to Him, will do works "greater than" His!

Actually the "greater" in this verse means greater in number, or length of time. This is BECAUSE He is "going to the father". We will not do "better" works than Him just do them for longer. His ministry lasted only three years.

But even SAYING that, Paul makes it clear that these works are actually done by the Spirit, THROUGH us...

On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me.

This is obviously not a "working of faith", but rather, literal works done by God through Paul

But our choices are critical elements to His hope for us and for the world. Indeed, our presence, not His, restrains antichrist from revealing himself.

THIS is putting us in the place of God. Without God, Satan (and therefore antichrist) would squash us like bugs. Only the presence of Christ in the world restrains Him...

Which only confirms that there is a "work of faith" required for salvation -- else you are "dead," right? Calvinism is merely confusing "works" with "works of the law" instead of what those works really must be, "works of faith."

Nope. True faith brings works. If I believe medicine will save me, I will take it. That does not mean my action and my faith are the same thing. There is no "work of faith" required for salvation. Faith is a gift. If it is a work, we are all damned, for scripture is clear salvation is NOT by works.

"Works" means actions or deeds. It is ANYTHING we do.

I really appreciate your deliberations on this issue, though. Do you see the 'disconnect' Calvinism puts between faith that works and faith that is in vain? Even in salvation, there is a "work" that keeps us from being "dead."

skypair

No, I see no disconnect. You have been deceived by 20th century thinking, that makes you think you can "believe" something, and not act in accordance with your beliefs. Scripture affirms ones true beliefs are in accordance with their actions, regardless what they may profess. This, then plainly makes "belief" and "actions" two different things, although linked. Calvinism is the only doctrine that makes since of these verses.

 

[skypair]

When we as Christians do good things, it is God doing them through us.

Yes, and even the unsaved to good things because God works through them. The parent loves and nourishes his/her child from God. ALL good things come from God through the flesh. That is no proof that it is God that directly does it.

Nope. Faith is a gift of God. Scripture says point blank that you are absolutely wrong...

Faith IS a gift of God -- no doubt about it, 1Cor 12:9. Faith is God's answer to our response to Him. I have been trying to impress this on Calvies since before you were here. raying: If you do not have faith, you only have "belief" -- unproven opinion.

1Co 12:3 Therefore I want you to understand that no one speaking in the Spirit of God ever says "Jesus is accursed!" and no one can say "Jesus is Lord" [and mean it in his heart, right?] except in the Holy Spirit.

I agree.

Or 3, simply make me a biblically defined believer. God does work through us. When we do good works (feeding the Homeless) it is God doing work through us.

As noted in my previous answer, God does work through UNBELIEVERS as well. Don't unbelievers where you live contribute to the food kitchens? Pay taxes (I wish that were so here!)?

Rom 8:9 You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.

So true!

Actually the "greater" in this verse means greater in number, or length of time. This is BECAUSE He is "going to the father". We will not do "better" works than Him just do them for longer. His ministry lasted only three years.

I think you err here. The "greater works" we do is to lead people to salvation so that they may receive the indwelling Spirit! Jesus had to leave earth so that this spiritual "work" could be done. In fact, this it the real reason why there was none greater born of women than John the Baptist but "the least in the kingdom of heaven shall be greater than he!" Mt 11:10.

I certainly wish you would get off your Greek explanations and just read the text. :BangHead:

On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me.

Yes, we all ought acknowledge what we have received spiritually as the motivation for what we do in our flesh (when it is good, that is). But, yes, we are doing what we do by faith.

THIS is putting us in the place of God. Without God, Satan (and therefore antichrist) would squash us like bugs. Only the presence of Christ in the world restrains Him...

I guess we can agree to disagree on 2Thes 2:6-7. But have you actually seen Christ in the world lately? You're not one of those who says "He is here or He is there" are you?

If it is a work, we are all damned, for scripture is clear salvation is NOT by works.

What I was trying to point out and you apparently missed is that the "works" Paul talked about as "not of works" were works of the law. Do you really think that there is nothing we can do to be saved?

No, I see no disconnect. You have been deceived by 20th century thinking, that makes you think you can "believe" something, and not act in accordance with your beliefs.

Oh? So if I believe the stock market is going up tomorrow but I invest nothing in my belief and it goes up, have I not believed "in vain?"

Scripture affirms ones true beliefs are in accordance with their actions, regardless what they may profess.

Yeah! I've tried to tell Calvies this for so long and finally someone understands! :thumbs: If I believe the gospel in my heart, I will confess Him with my tongue (in my case, that 'sinner's prayer') and God will give me the proof/faith of my convictions -- the Holy Spirit!!! PTL!


skypair
skypair

 

[JustChristian]

And therein I think is one more root of this matter. LM's aversion to the doctrines of JM is a manifestation of his disdain for Calvinism.

Here's my take on what JM is teaching: In my neck of Baptist woods, it's called gospel salvation. Apart and distinct from eternal salvation.

Commitments, obedience, and discipleship, as well as submission to His Lordship, are requirements for those who have been told of their eternal salvation, have heard the gospel, and profess to love Christ.

Again, I reiterate. When Jesus Christ and His apostles stood on Mt. Olivet, prior to His ascension AFTER (not yelling, just emphasizing) He shed His blood on the cross here in time and He uttered "it is finished) there were NOBODY ELSE besides Him, the Apostles, and the rest of the 120 who were in the upper room, knew of a risen Savior, and a finished salvation, IN ALL THE EARTH, or all the world, for the benefit of Arminians.

Therefore, the Lord's instructions, were to go, teach, baptize. Not go, save, teach, then baptize, because He had already done the eternal saving of His people's souls, even those that were yet to be born, unless He had to be crucified again for them.

From that point on, the task for His church was to go, teach, baptize. And those who obey will be saved, in the gospel sense. Saved from an untoward generation, saved from false gods (remember there was no Christianity at yet with all its divisions and "learned" men) and false religions and philosophies.

If they profess Christ as Savior, and as their Lord, then it is incumbent upon them to repent, obey, and submit to Christ.

I still don't understand what you mean by gospel salvation versus eternal salvation. I've never heard about two salvations and don't find it in the Bible.

 

[Lou Martuneac]

What is the Crux of the Repentance Debate?

Dear BB Readers:

I want to reiterate the subject of this thread to refocus on the crux of Lordship Salvation's controversial view of repentance.

The Grace to You website posts an article by Dr. MacArthur, that is touted by one LS apologist as his (MacArthur’s) definitive statement on Lordship Salvation. The article begins with a paragraph that defines how John MacArthur views a lost man must be born again. The statement is written by MacArthur and it is discussing the Gospel, the plan of salvation, the Lordship Salvation interpretation of how a lost man receives the “offer (gift) of eternal life,” how he is born again.

“The gospel that Jesus proclaimed was a call to discipleship, a call to follow Him in submissive obedience, not just a plea to make a decision or pray a prayer. Jesus' message liberated people from the bondage of their sin while it confronted and condemned hypocrisy. It was an offer of eternal life and forgiveness for repentant sinners, but at the same time it was a rebuke to outwardly religious people whose lives were devoid of true righteousness. It put sinners on notice that they must turn from sin and embrace God's righteousness. Our Lord's words about eternal life were invariably accompanied by warnings to those who might be tempted to take salvation lightly. He taught that the cost of following Him is high, that the way is narrow and few find it. He said many who call him Lord will be forbidden from entering the kingdom of heaven (cf. Matt. 7:13-23).” (An Introduction to Lordship Salvation by Dr. John MacArthur)

In the Can God-Given Faith be Defective thread I included a link to an important article on Lordship Salvation by Pastor George Zeller. I will link to it again- John MacArthur’s Position on the Lordship of Christ

In that Lordship of Christ article, by Ps. George Zeller, you will read additional documentation of MacArthur’s view that repentance for salvation requires a lost man to “turn from sin.” Here is that portion.

Dr. MacArthur tends to confuse repentance with the fruits of repentance, and to confuse faith with that which faith ought to produce. He confuses saving faith (which takes place in a moment of time--Rom. 13:11; Eph. 1:13) with discipleship (which is a lifelong process). As Miles Stanford has said, “Lordship salvation is not the childlike faith of John 3:16. It rightly insists upon repentance but wrongly includes a change of behavior IN ORDER TO BE SAVED. No one questions that there must be a sincere change of mind, a turning from oneself to the Saviour, but Lordship advocates attempt to make behavior and fruit essential ingredients of, rather than evidence of, saving faith.” (Miles Stanford, in his review of The Gospel According to Jesus).

MacArthur defines REPENTANCE as turning from your sins (Faith Works, p. 74). He also teaches that true repentance “inevitably results in a change of behavior” (Faith Works, p. 75). But is not TURNING FROM SINS a CHANGE OF BEHAVIOR? Is MacArthur confusing the RESULTS of repentance with REPENTANCE itself? Is not he confusing the FRUITS with the ROOT? MacArthur is more accurate when he says, “true repentance involves a change of heart and purpose” (Faith Works, p. 75). The inner change will produce an outward change.

The writing of Lordship Salvation advocates confirm beyond any doubt that LS is a works based, man-centered message that conditions eternal life on an upfront commitment to change behavior and perform the “good works” (Eph. 2:10) that should be the result of a genuine conversion. Calling on a lost man to “turn from sin” FOR SALVATION is to condition salvation on behavior, not believing.


LM

For additonal documentation of Lordship Salvation’s “leave (stop committing) sin, and follow Jesus at any cost” to become a Christian message please read, Is Lordship Salvation a “Barter” System?