Lordship Salvation and Eternal Security!

[TCGreek]

1. Let me propose the argument that Lordship Salvation and the Eternal Security of the believer are eternally bound together.

2. They are inseparable.

3. If you believe in the Eternal Security of the believer, you also of necessity must believe in Lordship salvation. If you don't, you just haven't realized it yet.

Keep reading Scripture and you'll arrive at the inescapable.

 

[skypair]

1. Let me propose the argument that Lordship Salvation and the Eternal Security of the believer are eternally bound together.

2. They are inseparable.

3. If you believe in the Eternal Security of the believer, you also of necessity must believe in Lordship salvation. If you don't, you just haven't realized it yet.

Keep reading Scripture and you'll arrive at the inescapable.

I got a question: According to this hypothesis, what percentage of the time does He have to be Lord of my life and me be obedient in order for Him to be considered my Lord?

skypair

 

[christianyouth]

TCGreek, this is getting ridiculous. What on Earth has happened to the standard of posting around here? There has been a steady decline over the past 2 years. We used to not just make assertions, we used to have dialogue. :angry:

 

[TCGreek]

I got a question: According to this hypothesis, what percentage of the time does He have to be Lord of my life and me be obedient in order for Him to be considered my Lord?

skypair

Is it possible in the end to NOT recognize Jesus as Lord and still be considered His?

 

[TCGreek]

TCGreek, this is getting ridiculous. What on Earth has happened to the standard of posting around here? There has been a steady decline over the past 2 years. We used to not just make assertions, we used to have dialogue. :angry:

What is so ridiculous about what I've laid out?

 

[Havensdad]

I got a question: According to this hypothesis, what percentage of the time does He have to be Lord of my life and me be obedient in order for Him to be considered my Lord?

skypair

100 percent.

Servants fail to finish tasks there Lord assigns to them, but it is not due to a lack of desire. The one that desires to serve his master, and cries out "Lord, why do I fail you?!" is serving his Lord. The one who walks where he wishes, without regard to the commands of the Master, is not.

If God says "pick up that house", and I walk over to it, and try with all my might to lift, I am being obedient, even though I am unable. The one who says "I will not try", is not.

 

[TCGreek]

100 percent.

Servants fail to finish tasks there Lord assigns to them, but it is not due to a lack of desire. The one that desires to serve his master, and cries out "Lord, why do I fail you?!" is serving his Lord. The one who walks where he wishes, without regard to the commands of the Master, is not.

If God says "pick up that house", and I walk over to it, and try with all my might to lift, I am being obedient, even though I am unable. The one who says "I will not try", is not.

What do make of Matt 7:21-23; Luke 6:46; and Matt 25? They seem to run contra your statement.

 

[Havensdad]

What do make of Matt 7:21-23; Luke 6:46; and Matt 25? They seem to run contra your statement.

They do not. I was addressing in particular those on this board, who seem to believe that Lordship salvation means one has to be "perfect" in their actions to be saved. My point was, that as believers, we will stumble at times and fall into sin, but this does not mean that Jesus is suddenly not our "Lord", and that we then lose our salvation. Coming to Our Lord in repentance when we fail, is PART of His commands. So when Jesus says for example, "Why do you call me Lord Lord, and yet you do not do hat I tell you", this would include coming to Him in repentance when we fail, and is part of Calling Him "Lord".

 

[TCGreek]

They do not. I was addressing in particular those on this board, who seem to believe that Lordship salvation means one has to be "perfect" in their actions to be saved. My point was, that as believers, we will stumble at times and fall into sin, but this does not mean that Jesus is suddenly not our "Lord", and that we then lose our salvation. Coming to Our Lord in repentance when we fail, is PART of His commands. So when Jesus says for example, "Why do you call me Lord Lord, and yet you do not do hat I tell you", this would include coming to Him in repentance when we fail, and is part of Calling Him "Lord".

Ok, we are essentially in agreement. :thumbs:

 

[skypair]

They do not. I was addressing in particular those on this board, who seem to believe that Lordship salvation means one has to be "perfect" in their actions to be saved. My point was, that as believers, we will stumble at times and fall into sin, but this does not mean that Jesus is suddenly not our "Lord", and that we then lose our salvation. Coming to Our Lord in repentance when we fail, is PART of His commands. So when Jesus says for example, "Why do you call me Lord Lord, and yet you do not do hat I tell you", this would include coming to Him in repentance when we fail, and is part of Calling Him "Lord".

But basically, "stumbling and falling occasionally is OK, but succumbing to the flesh and not "trying" to be obedient all the time suggests that one is unsaved.

Have you ever been, not 40 years but just a year or so, to the "wilderness" in your walk with Christ, Hdad? Ever been more focused on your career or your survival financially or divorced by your wife or Christian friends/church let you down, etc? Do you think maybe sometimes life makes it nearly impossible to listen to Christ's commands much less obey them?

Your "model" is idealistic, to say the least. Do you think God understands? Read Rom 8:20 -- "For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty..." He subjects us CONTINUALLY and He hopes CONTINUALLY that we will learn to trust Him but we don't always and we don't consistently. And you better make yourself ready for the saints who fall and need your help, not your LS judgment!

skypair

 

[Havensdad]

But basically, "stumbling and falling occasionally is OK, but succumbing to the flesh and not "trying" to be obedient all the time suggests that one is unsaved.

Have you ever been, not 40 years but just a year or so, to the "wilderness" in your walk with Christ, Hdad? Ever been more focused on your career or your survival financially or divorced by your wife or Christian friends/church let you down, etc? Do you think maybe sometimes life makes it nearly impossible to listen to Christ's commands much less obey them?

Your "model" is idealistic, to say the least. Do you think God understands? Read Rom 8:20 -- "For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty..." He subjects us CONTINUALLY and He hopes CONTINUALLY that we will learn to trust Him but we don't always and we don't consistently. And you better make yourself ready for the saints who fall and need your help, not your LS judgment!

skypair

I have never, since I was saved, sinned in such a way where there was not a battle. But I have sinned, and will sin again. But I have also never failed to turn from a sin or sinful behavior. When I sin, the conviction of the Holy Spirit assails me, drives me to my knees, and ultimately God uses it to bring me closer to Him. This has been true throughout my walk, and I would be concerned for anyone that could not say the same.

This is the model of "Lordship salvation".

 

[nunatak]

But I have also never failed to turn from a sin or sinful behavior. When I sin, the conviction of the Holy Spirit assails me, drives me to my knees, and ultimately God uses it to bring me closer to Him.

This is the model of "Lordship salvation".

I am not sure I agree with this part. Lordship salvation, indeed salvation period, is not about what we do, but about what Christ does in us. Christ is our righteousness, sanctification, and glorification. Now if Christ is these things, then what do we have left to boast in: "I repented and accepted Christ as Lord on ...." If I repent, it is God's grace. In fact, the act of repentance is impossible apart from God's sovereign grace. So, do I have anything left to boast about? Can I truly even say that I put MY faith in Christ? No, the only thing I can boast in is Christ. I gladly take him as both Savior and Lord.

 

[Marcia]

TCGreek, this is getting ridiculous. What on Earth has happened to the standard of posting around here? There has been a steady decline over the past 2 years. We used to not just make assertions, we used to have dialogue. :angry:

It is a debate forum. I think it's okay to make assertions and then allow people to agree, disagree, discuss, etc. :wavey:

 

[TCGreek]

I really can't see how a believer could believe in eternal security and not Lordship salvation.

If we are depending on Christ to keep us, it is precisely because he is Lord of our lives.

 

[Marcia]

I have never, since I was saved, sinned in such a way where there was not a battle. But I have sinned, and will sin again. But I have also never failed to turn from a sin or sinful behavior. When I sin, the conviction of the Holy Spirit assails me, drives me to my knees, and ultimately God uses it to bring me closer to Him. This has been true throughout my walk, and I would be concerned for anyone that could not say the same.

This is the model of "Lordship salvation".

What you describe above is to me just being a Christian and being convicted by the HS of sin when one sins. This is just the Christian walk after salvation. Lordship salvation has something to do with salvation.

My understanding of LS was that one must accept Christ as Lord of his/her life at the moment of salvation and understand what that means. I certainly did not understand the ramifications of becoming a Christian when I was saved. I barely understood anything - except that I was lost and needed Jesus as the Savior (also understanding he was the Savior, which was a biggie) or I would be eternally separated from God.

As I grew in Christ, I began to understand more and also learned about and experienced the process of sanctification. I think being a disciple and making Jesus the Lord of your life is a process of sanctification and that no one can do this at the moment of salvation.

 

[Havensdad]

What you describe above is to me just being a Christian and being convicted by the HS of sin when one sins. This is just the Christian walk after salvation. Lordship salvation has something to do with salvation.

My understanding of LS was that one must accept Christ as Lord of his/her life at the moment of salvation and understand what that means. I certainly did not understand the ramifications of becoming a Christian when I was saved. I barely understood anything - except that I was lost and needed Jesus as the Savior (also understanding he was the Savior, which was a biggie) or I would be eternally separated from God.

As I grew in Christ, I began to understand more and also learned about and experienced the process of sanctification. I think being a disciple and making Jesus the Lord of your life is a process of sanctification and that no one can do this at the moment of salvation.

Marcia,

Lordship salvation is not that one must "do everything" when they are saved. It is rather an assertion that discipleship is not optional, but automatic. "Discipleship" and "being saved" are always taught synonymously. A trusting faith is the BEGINNING of the "discipleship" process.

Cheap grace proponents like to separate the two. As in "Ok, your saved, now you have to decide if your going to follow Jesus". The Bible never speaks in such terms. Christ preached to the crowds, "If anyone would follow after me, let him deny himself, pick up his cross, and follow me........for what shall it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his soul". Those people who responded, OBEYED, and were then justified by faith. There response to Christ's command, demonstrated saving faith, and they were saved. Those whose actions were NOT changed, (i.e. they refused to follow Him/they did not submit to Him), did NOT have saving faith, and "forfeited" their soul.

 

[TCGreek]

Coming to Christ for salvation is a sign indeed of his Lordship, although it may not be quite evident at first for the one coming.

There's no doubt that some semblance of the recognition of Christ's Lordship has taken place, but to what extent, is quite debatable.

 

[Marcia]

Marcia,

Lordship salvation is not that one must "do everything" when they are saved. It is rather an assertion that discipleship is not optional, but automatic. "Discipleship" and "being saved" are always taught synonymously. A trusting faith is the BEGINNING of the "discipleship" process.

Cheap grace proponents like to separate the two. As in "Ok, your saved, now you have to decide if your going to follow Jesus". The Bible never speaks in such terms. Christ preached to the crowds, "If anyone would follow after me, let him deny himself, pick up his cross, and follow me........for what shall it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his soul". Those people who responded, OBEYED, and were then justified by faith. There response to Christ's command, demonstrated saving faith, and they were saved. Those whose actions were NOT changed, (i.e. they refused to follow Him/they did not submit to Him), did NOT have saving faith, and "forfeited" their soul.

I think you are making a false choice here - cheap grace vs. your view. I am not agreeing with either one.

I do think discipleship is part of being a Christian, but it's not "automatic" in the sense that a believer automatically does it, if that's what you mean. I have known believers who even drift away but then are convicted and come back to Christ. I don't think God forces believers to be disciples - I think believers are convicted by the Holy Spirit and God's word to do this but they are able to resist.

In 1 Cor. Paul talks about the believers who were abusing the Lord's Supper and wrote that is why many of them "sleep." I think it shows that believers can drift from serving God and in that particular case, God just took them home.

There is also the "sin unto death" which many believe is a sin believers commit that God takes them home for.

 

[Marcia]

Christ preached to the crowds, "If anyone would follow after me, let him deny himself, pick up his cross, and follow me........for what shall it profit a man if he gains the whole world, and loses his soul". Those people who responded, OBEYED, and were then justified by faith. There response to Christ's command, demonstrated saving faith, and they were saved. Those whose actions were NOT changed, (i.e. they refused to follow Him/they did not submit to Him), did NOT have saving faith, and "forfeited" their soul.

1. Are you saying that someone must obey something before being saved?

2. Where do you get the facts to make the statement that "those people who responded, obeyed, and were then justified by faith?" It's not there.

 

[Lou Martuneac]

I think you are making a false choice here - cheap grace vs. your view. I am not agreeing with either one.

I do think discipleship is part of being a Christian, but it's not "automatic" in the sense that a believer automatically does it, if that's what you mean. I have known believers who even drift away but then are convicted and come back to Christ. I don't think God forces believers to be disciples - I think believers are convicted by the Holy Spirit and God's word to do this but they are able to resist.

In 1 Cor. Paul talks about the believers who were abusing the Lord's Supper and wrote that is why many of them "sleep." I think it shows that believers can drift from serving God and in that particular case, God just took them home.

There is also the "sin unto death" which many believe is a sin believers commit that God takes them home for.

Marcia:

To add to your comments above there are, just as the Apostle Paul, through Inspiraton of the Holy Spirit, "carnal" Christians in the church.

Lordship advocates, like John MacArthur write,

The tragic result is that many people think it is fairly normal for Christians to live like unbelievers. . . . As I noted. . . . contemporary theologians have devised an entire category for this type of person--the “carnal Christian.” (The Gospel According to Jesus [Revised & Expanded Edition], p. 135.)

Walter J. Chantry, another Lordship advocate, wrote:

In a panic over this phenomenon [of worldly Christians], the evangelicals have invented the idea of “carnal Christians.” (Today's Gospel: Authentic or Synthetic, p. 54.)

While it may be commonplace for “Christians to live like unbelievers,” it certainly should not be “normal” for any Christian. The “carnal Christian” is not a category “devised” by “contemporary theologians.” It is a category of believers (“brethren”) identified in the Word of God, through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, by the Apostle Paul.

Walter Chantry and John MacArthur must ignore the clear teaching of Scripture to arrive at the conclusion that the “carnal” Christian has been “devised,” invented, or fabricated only in recent times.

Lordship Salvation's answer to the reality of "carnal" Christians in the church has been to change the terms of the Gospel.


LM