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Lordship Salvation and Eternal Security!
- Thread starter TCGreek
- Start date
raying:
Marcia
Active Member
Lou Martuneac said:
I am not sure you are responding to what I said. I never said it is commonplace for "Christians to live like unbelievers" (and that's not my quote so I don't know where you got it) nor did I use the phrase "carnal Christians." Were you responding to me??
The Bible speaks of saved people - believers - who were taken home due to their sin (and we have Anninias and Sapphira as well). I was pointing out that there are regenerated believers who are not good models of being disciples, as illustrated in the Bible.
Lou Martuneac
New Member
Just showing how some LS advocates dismiss the reality of "carnal" Christians and providing some answers.Marcia said:
LM
Lou Martuneac
New Member
I will address an important subject even though my original statement was deliberately misconstrued by placing carnal and Christian within quotation marks, The misconstrue appears this way, ...the phrase "carnal Christians"? My comments appear this way, "carnal" Christians.
The statement "carnal Christian" was referenced, written and used by John MacArthur and appears in his Revised and Expanded edition of TGATJ on page 135. Obviously the complainant did not read that book by MacArthur and did not carefully read my previous comment.
Does the Apostle Paul address “carnal” Christians? If one were to read the New Testament with discernment, he would note…
Who is the Letter to the Corinthians addressed to?
LM
The statement "carnal Christian" was referenced, written and used by John MacArthur and appears in his Revised and Expanded edition of TGATJ on page 135. Obviously the complainant did not read that book by MacArthur and did not carefully read my previous comment.
Does the Apostle Paul address “carnal” Christians? If one were to read the New Testament with discernment, he would note…
Who is the Letter to the Corinthians addressed to?
Any one who says Paul is not speaking of “carnal” Christians, is just as likely to say that there is no biblical proof for the Triune God because the word “Trinity” does not appear in Scripture.
LM
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Marcia
Active Member
Lou Martuneac said:
Yes, but you addressed me by name at the beginning of the post.
Also, please in the future do not put quotes around remarks I did not make when you address me. It makes it look as though I said those things and I did not say them! Please do not do that. Thanks.
Lou Martuneac said:
Your neglecting a very important Greek word in this verse. "Hopou". We know for a fact that the Corinthian believers were not "carnal" in their lifestyle. How do we know that? Paul himself SAYS they were not:
1Co 1:5 that in every way you were enriched in him in all speech and all knowledge--
1Co 1:6 even as the testimony about Christ was confirmed among you--
1Co 1:7 so that you are not lacking in any spiritual gift (including charity), as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ
They were following Christ. Did they need direction? Yes. They did not yet have much instruction, because they did not yet have a complete Bible. They were doing things wrong. For one, they were tolerating sin among them, instead of condemning it and expelling the offending party (Chapter 5). They were quibbling about theology. They were arguing about who was the "better" apostle.
But that word "hopou" is telling. "for where(hopou: in the area; a certain "spot", etc.) are divisions and strife you are "carnal". These people were coming together, preaching, prophesying, giving, doing charity, etc. NONE of the spiritual gifts were absent. Yet they were divided, and in this, they were being "like (unsaved) men", and carnal.
I'm gonna say what one believer said in the gospels, "Lord, I believe. Help Thou my unbelief."TCGreek said:
Many believe they are saved but things don't "turn around" in their lives. The "shallow soil" and the "thorn choked" Christians in the parable of the sower are good examples -- no fruit. Why? The "mustard seed-sized" faith it took to believe unto salvation was not enough to grow a fruitful tree of faith nor to fight off the "hole they'd dug themselves" in the world.
This is where Christ's commission to "make disciples" is so key! It's not just to lead them to Christ but to "teach them." It doesn't mean you can't "save" them -- just that the "fruit" of LS isn't gonna come without "husbandry"/tending.
Have you ever led someone to the Lord 1300 miles from where you live -- say at Huntington Beach, CA, 1965 -- and wondered if they were practicing "Lordship salvation" (producing fruit) or not? Wouldn't that only happen if they "hooked up" with a good Bible-believing church? And if they didn't, would they not be saved?
To me the issues are separate, salvation vs. growth -- salvation vs. LS.
skypair
skypair said:
No, it is not. It is teaching salvation by faith, rather than salvation by mental belief.
A person that has faith in Christ, follows Christ. He who says he has faith, but does not follow, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. Hmm. That sounds familiar.
Look at scripture. Faith is ALWAYS related to action. The woman who had great faith, pushed her way through the crowds to touch the hem of Christ's garment. When the rich man refused to follow Christ, the apostles were told how hard it is for a "rich man to enter heaven", not how "hard it is for a rich man to be a disciple!".
Why were the Pharisees condemned? Because they obeyed the law? NO. Jesus was so hard on them because there ACTIONS did not match up with their WORDS. They were condemned as "hypocrites': they said they had faith, but their deeds did not show it.
Now, in regards to your "mustard seed" analogy above. Jesus said if we had faith like a mustard seed:"For truly, I say to you, if you have faith like a grain of mustard seed, you will say to this mountain, 'Move from here to there,' and it will move, and nothing will be impossible for you." Even the smallest amount of true saving faith will cause huge, instant results!!!
skypair said:
BTW> Could you please show me WHERE in scripture salvation and discipleship is separated? The word "disciple" just means "follower". If you are saved you are a "follower" of Jesus Christ!
There is not a single verse in the bible that separates disciple/salvation, nor is it ever inferred that such is possible. This is a tremendous error, which has crept into the church.
Amy.G said:
Amy, thank you SO MUCH for responding. It is very difficult to discuss these things, when people will not post scripture.
Now, the scripture above certainly shows that people can "follow" Christ, yet not truly believe in Him and be saved. I agree, and L.S. agrees that this is possible.
The question we must ask ourselves, is WHY these people chose at this point not to follow Christ. Thankfully, for us, the scriptures TELL US why. Some did not "believe" (actually, this word is "pistueo", which is the word for having faith".) These people stopped following Christ because they did not have faith. What does that mean for those who DID follow Him?
Jesus addresses these "false disciples" in the parable of the sower and the seed...
Mat 13:20 As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy,
Mat 13:21 yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away.
Also, John...
1Jn 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us. (These people were never true disciples; there leaving simply "made it become plain" to everyone.
So it is possible to appear to be a disciple, for a time, and not have faith. Yet those who HAVE true faith, are distinguished by the fact that they do NOT fall away. Again, discipleship is shown to NOT be optional for the true believer.
Havensdad said:
These are believers, Hdad, who "followed" or were "disciples of" Cephas, Paul, Christ, etal. And, in fact, it was quite common for disciples to associate their ministries with John -- Eusibius, I believe, was one.
I think what you are showing is that you don't know what discipleship is. It is the period after salvation where, by close association with the church and scripture, one grows in "the knowledge and faith of Christ," Eph 4:13. Read 4:11-16 for a fuller understanding of the concept.
Furthermore, your explanation to Amy suffers many flaws.
1) Christ never refers to anyone as "false disciples" though you put it in quotations as if He did.
2) They turned away in that particular instance because Jesus was speaking to them about the CHURCH which was to come but had not appeared and they could not grasp that change that was about to come. They were believers in the OT sense (many of them) but the complete plan of grace had yet to be revealed, I think once you understand the context, you will see their dilemma very clearly!
3) The last 3 "seeds" brought forth life -- germinated -- just as one who is saved does. The problem of the "fruit" is a problem of no "discipling"/growing. One was on account of lack of scriptural knowledge, the other on account of worldly cares as Christ plainly points out.
4) There are people that leave a Christian fellowship. Not always because they aren't saved but because they disagree with the "growth direction" that a certain church is taking. I don't see 1John as being condemnatory as much as an alusion to 1Cor 11:19. It relates to cleansing of the church and showing which doctrines/teachings are manifestly approved by God. Think of it this way: Five years down the road, which "heresy"/"sect" is living in God's blessing and which not?
5) Finally, you are right about being a disciple without being saved. IMO, it exactly "tracks" the pure Reform/Calvinist experience of presuming one is saved and going about to sanctify the "old garment" -- to try to put new wine in an old purse.
skypair
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skypair said:
I understand what the modern Church has MADE it to be. But that is not the understanding the early church had. A call to be a "disciple" by Christ, was a call to salvation. The word "Mathetes", simply means someone who is following and learning from another. In fact, the word could even be used to denote someone following you in a geographic sense (that car is following me!). It carries little of the connotations we get from the use of the word today. Anyone who is saved, IS a disciple of Jesus.
In the loosest of senses, yeah.Havensdad said:
Sorry we don't agree on this. I suppose it "goes the way" of me seeing a soul distinct from a spirit in man and you not. You just have not received as much of that "knowedge and faith of Christ" (Eph 4:13) as I have and, indeed, you have only received what you wanted to receive.
BTW, I added to my earlier post while you were responding. It may be of some help to consider the last 5 points I made there as well.
skypair
skypair said:
Sorry, I did not mean to infer that Christ had called them "False disciples". He does speak of such, but does not use that exact terminology. The fact remains that they WERE false disciples> those who "endure to the end" will be saved. Obviously I believe that is a work of God.
I understand the context clearly. The point is, that the ones who did not believe turned away. Since they are specifically said to not have "pistis", they cannot have been saved.
"Any tree that does not bear fruit, is cut down and thrown into the fire."
Mat 25:24 He also who had received the one talent came forward, saying, 'Master, I knew you to be a hard man, reaping where you did not sow, and gathering where you scattered no seed,
Mat 25:25 so I was afraid, and I went and hid your talent in the ground. Here you have what is yours.'
Mat 25:30 And cast the worthless servant into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.'
Only the last seeds, in the parable of the sower, brings forth eternal life.
Um, I am not sure how this applies. Maybe you misunderstand how I use the word "disciple". I am using it in a first century context. A "Disciple" is one who serves and follows Jesus. They live their life for Him. They center their life around him. I am not referring to "discipling" in a twentieth century context of being under the teaching of elders in a local church body.
I am not sure what you are saying here, either. I am a five point Calvinist. I believe we should walk by the Spirit. If you believe that is wrong, label me wrong.
Marcia said:
Absolutely! We must repent, and believe the Gospel! :laugh:
Sorry, I know that wasn't what you are talking about. Here goes:
No, we don't have to "do" anything to be saved (in the sense that you are speaking in). But our faith CAUSES us to do something.
Let me give you the example Jesus gave:
Mat 21:28 But what do you think? A man had two sons; and he came to the first and said, Son, go work in my vineyard today.
Mat 21:29 He answered and said, I will not. But afterwards he repented and went.
Mat 21:30 And he came to the second and said likewise. And he answered and said, I go, sir; and did not go.
Mat 21:31 Which of the two did the will of his father?
One of these two sons demonstrated faith. The other did not. What happens to those who do not "do the will of the father"?
Mat 7:21 Not everyone who says to Me, Lord! Lord! shall enter the kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in Heaven.
Because Jesus gave an invitation to the people standing around. He warned that them, in connection with the statement, about "Forfeiting their soul". Since we know salvation is by faith (from other scriptures), and that , for instance, Abrahams obedience is actually CALLED faith :
Heb 11:17 By faith Abraham, being tested, offered up Isaac.
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
AND I know Jesus couldn't lie. Therefore, whoever responded in faith, was saved.