"Lordship Salvation" answers

[pinoybaptist]

Are you saying that eternal salvation doesn't require belief/faith then?

Skypair, challenging me on this point is going to derail the OP. Like I said, you can start a thread, and if you can control your tongue, who knows, I might discuss with you.

My, aren't you a dandy!! making heaven free and all! Who put you in charge? Who gave you the keys to the kingdom?

Like I said, control the insults and the insinuations and cheap shots like this and I might think you really are a brother in Christ. Right now, I don't consider you one, which is why I have not posted in threads you have started.

 

[Isaiah40:28]

Both of them I presume. When you take two opposite positions simultaneously you can never be completely wrong. What a strategy!

holding my tongue

 

[JustChristian]

Isaiah 40:28 said:
Thank you for your reply. I think that I agree with what you mean. However, allow me a little critique. Your original statement was "confes all sin". When pressed you backed off and explained that you meant [confess]"all known sin". There is a huge difference between what you originally said and what you actually meant. Frainkly, I think that a good deal of the disagreement between LS advocates and non-LS advocates is a problem of LS advocates overstating what they mean. LS advocates say that a person must commit every area of life to Christ's Lordship at the point of salvation. Actually, a person can no more do this at salvation than they can "confess all sin" at salvation. If a person could commit every area of life to Christ at the point of salvation, there would be no need for progressive sanctification. If LS advocates would tone down their language and clarify their meaning I think some common ground could be found.

What areas of a converts life should not be confessed and can still be controlled by a Christian? Money? Sex? Power? etc.

 

[swaimj]

BaptistBeliever, there can be a whole host of habits and sins in a person's life when they come to faith that the person is not aware is sinful. The life-long process of sanctification is a constant process of returning to the cross and asking God to forgive us, change us, and make us new. It should be normal for every Christian to do this on a daily basis throughout our Christian life and the fact that it is not normal is evidence itself that many believers harbor sin. To make the confession of all sin a prerequisite for salvation makes salvation an impossibility for all of us. If you are saying that a person should desire in their heart to give up all sin at the point of salvation, I'm with you. If you are saying that a person has to actually, practically give it all up at salvation, then I don't know of anyone who has ever truly been saved. Such a demand is an impossible requirement. LS advocates speak in the language of this second option continually. If confronted with their overstatement, they back off their language and clarify that they actually hold to the first option. Yet they persist in using the language of the second and they persist in defending it.

 

[Lou Martuneac]

Isaiah 40:28 said:Frankly, I think that a good deal of the disagreement between LS advocates and non-LS advocates is a problem of LS advocates overstating what they mean. LS advocates say that a person must commit every area of life to Christ's Lordship at the point of salvation.

Swaimj:

You are correct, in a sense, but the "overstatements," are NOT overstatements. When you read what some call their "overstatements," they are in fact defining exactly what they believe the Gospel and requirements for salvation to be.

JM, for exmaple, has never edited, explained or eliminated any of his so-called, "overstatements." Two of MacArthur's Master's Seminary faculty members were troubled by statements The Gospel According to Jesus.

The IFCA was deeply concerned with statements in that book. They called JM to meet with their board for a Q & A. I have links to the transcripts and synopsis of the meetung with JM. See IFCA: Statement on Saving Faith & Interview with John MacArthur.


LM

 

[skypair]

Like I said, control the insults and the insinuations and cheap shots like this and I might think you really are a brother in Christ. Right now, I don't consider you one, which is why I have not posted in threads you have started.

I lived in Buffalo NY. I know how to handle your kind -- be gruff and impersonal. Never fuond a warm heart up there except my grandma, especially this time of the year!

So I'll mark it down that there will be MANY unbelieving "elect" in heaven and I will continually wonder if I ought to believe you any more than I do Calvin, Luther, and Augustine whose testimonies I am also doubtful of.

Now Sproul, on the other hand, his testimony is believeable and I will read him to see how someone who is saved can be distracted by his great intellect into a theology that begs more questions than it answers.

skypair

 

[skypair]

What areas of a converts life should not be confessed and can still be controlled by a Christian? Money? Sex? Power? etc.

If you look at the marriage relationship and how that parallels our relationship with Christ, you will see that He is the "Savior of the body" every bit as much as of the spirit --- and every bit as much as the husband is the savior of his wife's body Eph 5:23.

In Paul's day, when the woman would marry, she gave up any opportunities to see other men, to have an occupation, to support herself at all! A divorced woman was a pariah. And the sooner we realize that it is our LIVES we repent or turn over to Christ, not our sins, the sooner He will be "the Savior of OUR bodies" as well -- in every area of our lives!

Put another way, I don't think you went to the marriage altar to confess all your sins to your betrothed, did you?? No, you went there because, in spite of your past and his/hers, you had agreed to give your lives to one another! I think Calvinists have missed this whole line of reasoning. One here has even told me as much. It's fairly sad to think about what relationship he must have with my Lord.

skypair

 

[pinoybaptist]

I lived in Buffalo NY. I know how to handle your kind -- be gruff and impersonal. Never fuond a warm heart up there except my grandma, especially this time of the year!

So I'll mark it down that there will be MANY unbelieving "elect" in heaven and I will continually wonder if I ought to believe you any more than I do Calvin, Luther, and Augustine whose testimonies I am also doubtful of.

Now Sproul, on the other hand, his testimony is believeable and I will read him to see how someone who is saved can be distracted by his great intellect into a theology that begs more questions than it answers.

skypair

My kind ? What do you know about me, old man ? You don't know nuthin' at all.
Maybe you never found a warm heart up here because you shut yourself out as somebody bigger and greater than everybody else, like you do here, the way you throw subtle insults at Calvinists and everybody else who don't hold to your humanist theology.
Buffalo is a great city but won't be anymore if you come back here, so stay away.

 

[skypair]

My kind ? What do you know about me, old man ? You don't know nuthin' at all.
Maybe you never found a warm heart up here because you shut yourself out as somebody bigger and greater than everybody else, like you do here, the way you throw subtle insults at Calvinists and everybody else who don't hold to your humanist theology.
Buffalo is a great city but won't be anymore if you come back here, so stay away.

Like you said -- I don't know you; you don't know me. Except I know you live in Buffalo. :laugh:

skypair

 

[JustChristian]

BaptistBeliever, there can be a whole host of habits and sins in a person's life when they come to faith that the person is not aware is sinful. The life-long process of sanctification is a constant process of returning to the cross and asking God to forgive us, change us, and make us new. It should be normal for every Christian to do this on a daily basis throughout our Christian life and the fact that it is not normal is evidence itself that many believers harbor sin. To make the confession of all sin a prerequisite for salvation makes salvation an impossibility for all of us. If you are saying that a person should desire in their heart to give up all sin at the point of salvation, I'm with you. If you are saying that a person has to actually, practically give it all up at salvation, then I don't know of anyone who has ever truly been saved. Such a demand is an impossible requirement. LS advocates speak in the language of this second option continually. If confronted with their overstatement, they back off their language and clarify that they actually hold to the first option. Yet they persist in using the language of the second and they persist in defending it.

I agree that the process of repentance is ongoing. I guess that I'm saying that a believer must repent of known sins in order to be saved. Other existing sins and those committed after salvation need to be repented of on an ongoing basis. The reason I said this is because many here really mean that they are unwilling to submit to Christ's Lordship when they consider themselves to be saved leaving part of their life under their control rather than Christ's control.

 

[JustChristian]

BaptistBeliever, there can be a whole host of habits and sins in a person's life when they come to faith that the person is not aware is sinful. The life-long process of sanctification is a constant process of returning to the cross and asking God to forgive us, change us, and make us new. It should be normal for every Christian to do this on a daily basis throughout our Christian life and the fact that it is not normal is evidence itself that many believers harbor sin. To make the confession of all sin a prerequisite for salvation makes salvation an impossibility for all of us. If you are saying that a person should desire in their heart to give up all sin at the point of salvation, I'm with you. If you are saying that a person has to actually, practically give it all up at salvation, then I don't know of anyone who has ever truly been saved. Such a demand is an impossible requirement. LS advocates speak in the language of this second option continually. If confronted with their overstatement, they back off their language and clarify that they actually hold to the first option. Yet they persist in using the language of the second and they persist in defending it.

No one. Not a new convert nor a mature Christian is able to recognize and give up all sin. I'm talking about those things that obviously are put ahead of their relationship with Christ. For the rich young ruler it was his wealth.

 

[webdog]

I agree that the process of repentance is ongoing. I guess that I'm saying that a believer must repent of known sins in order to be saved. Other existing sins and those committed after salvation need to be repented of on an ongoing basis. The reason I said this is because many here really mean that they are unwilling to submit to Christ's Lordship when they consider themselves to be saved leaving part of their life under their control rather than Christ's control.

Define "known sin". Is that sins that are in your recolection or sin you know are sin? This sounds like only some sin needs to be confessed in order to be saved, while other sins do not need to be.

 

[LORDs_strateuo]

I agree that the process of repentance is ongoing. I guess that I'm saying that a believer must repent of known sins in order to be saved. Other existing sins and those committed after salvation need to be repented of on an ongoing basis. The reason I said this is because many here really mean that they are unwilling to submit to Christ's Lordship when they consider themselves to be saved leaving part of their life under their control rather than Christ's control.

amen to that

 

[Lou Martuneac]

Swaimj:

You wrote,

"If LS advocates would tone down their language and clarify their meaning I think some common ground could be found."

The so-called overstatements we read from LS advocates, are not overstatements at all. If they were, the statements would have been edited or eliminated.

JM's overstatements, for example, have been very disturbing for men even on his Master's Seminary faculty. He has never edited or eliminated them. Only one exception n which his senior editor, Phil Johnson, claims was a publisher taking liberties with p. 93 of Hard to Believe. But to my knowledge JM has never personally distanced himself from the original version of that page.

Thhe IFCA had JM in for a meeting to question him on some of those statements in his original The Gospel According to Jesus.

See IFCA Interview with John MacArthur


LM

 

[LORDs_strateuo]

pinoybaptist

Wouldn’t you say a person that gives there life entirely to God, by repenting of a sinful life and turning toward Him, evidence of God's election, God's Calling? I guess what I’m saying is LS(so to speak) is evidence that there faith is real is from God. right?

 

[JustChristian]

I do not want to derail this thread, skypair. So if you wish to show that eternal salvation has a pre-requisite, and that the pre-requisite is repentance, then you might want to start another thread on that, and if you treat me like a friend, since you referred to me as such, then I might even participate in the discussion.

My own stand is that the Savior saved those whom the Father had given Him, and whose names are in the Book of Life, with NO prerequisites.

Please bear in mind that unlike you, I believe eternal salvation to be entirely and distinctly separate from doctrinal and practical salvation here in time.

Eternal salvation is free, absolutely unconditional on the part of the sinner, and entirely by grace.

Timely salvation is conditional. An IF YOU, then I WILL, kind of salvation.

Therein is repentance, which is basically a change of mind, required.

Jesus is Lord, has always been and will always be Lord.

Whether one professes Him as Lord or not will not diminish that truth.

If one were to profess Christ as his Savior and Lord, then speaks and lives contrary to what he professed, then he lied, and walks in darkness. I think that is what John Mc'Arthur means.

Let's look at the story of the rich young ruler. He was seeking Christ. Jesus loved him. Why wasn't he saved? Because he wasn't willing to make Christ Lord of his life. His money was his Lord. The Bible says we cannot have two masters, God and Mammon. YOU have to decide.

 

[pinoybaptist]

Let's look at the story of the rich young ruler. He was seeking Christ. Jesus loved him. Why wasn't he saved? Because he wasn't willing to make Christ Lord of his life. His money was his Lord. The Bible says we cannot have two masters, God and Mammon. YOU have to decide.

Like I said, there is eternal salvation: all of grace, all OF the Lord and BY the Lord. No input from man. No "this for that". It is absolutely a gift, given by the owner, God, to whom He will.

And then, there is timely salvation: not of grace, requiring an input from the professor, "do this and I'll do that for you" by God.

You cannot prove that this rich young ruler is elect, but neither can you prove he is of the heathen.

What you can prove is that if you call Jesus Lord, then He demands your ALL, otherwise you are not fit to be His disciple, not not fit to be His child.

 

[JustChristian]

Define "known sin". Is that sins that are in your recolection or sin you know are sin? This sounds like only some sin needs to be confessed in order to be saved, while other sins do not need to be.

Ask Christ about the definition at The Judgement.

 

[webdog]

Ask Christ about the definition at The Judgement.

Christ didn't make the statement...you did. I'm asking you.

 

[Lou Martuneac]

Let's look at the story of the rich young ruler.

I have looked at this and how LS advocates misinterpret the passage to suit the Lordship interpretation of the Gospel. Here is John MacArthur from his original The Gospel According to Jesus:

"Our Lord gave this young man a test. He had to choose between his possessions and Jesus Christ. He failed the test. No matter what he believed, since he was unwilling to forsake all, he could not be a disciple of Christ. Salvation is for those who are willing to forsake everything."

Salvation is not conditioned on commitment or willingness, "to forsake everything," that is works salvation, and that frustrates grace.

MacArthur also wrote,

"At first sight, we might wonder what kind of message Jesus was trying to give this young man. A closer look reveals clearly what it was. If we could condense the truth of this entire passage into a single statement, it would be Luke 14:33: “So therefore, no one of you can be My disciple who does not give up all his own possessions.” (TGATJ, Rev.& Expanded, p. 85.)

The Luke 14 passage is not dealing with salvation but instead the good works one might expect of the believer. “Giving up all his own possessions” or even the willingness to do so would not have brought the rich young man any nearer to eternal life than keeping the Law, getting baptized, or joining and financially supporting a local church. John MacArthur has misinterpreted the message that Jesus gave this young man.

For more read, The Rich Young Ruler


LM