Lordship Salvation: Is it false?

[JustChristian]

Let's start with the opening sentence...

The gospel that Jesus proclaimed was a call to discipleship, a call to follow Him in submissive obedience, not just a plea to make a decision or pray a prayer.

The Gospel call to discipleship and to "follow him in submissive obedience" is an impossibility for an unregenerated person. Macarthur knows this, and that is why he needs pre faith regeneration for his position to work. Follow me here. Let's state for a fact that regeneration happens simultaneously with faith in Christ (whether you agree or not, pretend it's a given). If this is the case a call to discipleship and following Him in submissive obedience makes no sense to a spiritually dead person...they CAN'T know what this entails UNTIL they are regnerated. See the problem with this IF (and I believe the "if" to be true) regeneration is simultaneous with faith? His entire view is linked to this one factor...pre faith regeneration. Pre faith regeneration is not "another subject" but closely tied to this one.

Jesus' Gospel call is 1 John 5:11-12, i.e. "believe and be saved". Like Ed stated prior...is there such a thing as "hard believeism"?

Do you accept Christ's statement to Nicodemus that "Ye must be born again?" That means to be saved. Nicodemus accepted that command, repented of his sins, and was saved. The rich young ruler was unwilling to change the lord of his life (money) and went away forever lost.

 

[Lou Martuneac]

RB wrote,

“This portion of the article must be taken as JM’s position on fundamental articles of faith. Do you notice what I notice? Namely: 1. Salvation is proclaimed by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. I expected to hear this from JM.”

If JM believes that, why then do you also expect to hear, “Salvation is for those who are willing to forsake everything?”

That is NOT the message of salvation, by grace though faith in Christ alone!

This exemplifies why the detection of Lordship’s error is difficult for some to pin down. At times MacArthur writes in terms that are biblical and true to Scripture. Once you read how he defines his terms, such as we see in his definition of repentance which necessitates a resolve to a “change of behavior” you begin to see the commitment to works foundation that under girds LS.

There are many examples of Lordship’s departure from the biblical plan of salvation. MacArthur’s conditioning salvation on the willingness to forsake everything is one of those defining and radical expressions of Lordship Salvation that show us it is a works based message.


LM

 

[canadyjd]

But where does "discipleship" imperative appear in the gospel message Jesus gave in John 3:15-16, 18? The "equation" appears to be "Believe on Me and have eternal life."

The "discipleship imperative" appears in v.21, "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manisfested as having been wrought in God."

peace to youraying:

 

[ReformedBaptist]

RB wrote,

If JM believes that, why then do you also expect to hear, “Salvation is for those who are willing to forsake everything?” LM

Can you supply where JM said or wrote this and provide its context?

 

[FERRON BRIMSTONE]

RB wrote,

If JM believes that, why then do you also expect to hear, “Salvation is for those who are willing to forsake everything?”

That is NOT the message of salvation, by grace though faith in Christ alone!

This exemplifies why the detection of Lordship’s error is difficult for some to pin down. At times MacArthur writes in terms that are biblical and true to Scripture. Once you read how he defines his terms, such as we see in his definition of repentance which necessitates a resolve to a “change of behavior” you begin to see the commitment to works foundation that under girds LS.

There are many examples of Lordship’s departure from the biblical plan of salvation. MacArthur’s conditioning salvation on the willingness to forsake everything is one of those defining and radical expressions of Lordship Salvation that show us it is a works based message.


LM

JM is a Calvinist, He believes that God chooses whom will be saved, this removes any possibility of works salvation.

The Lordship position as taught by JM is that upon regeneration (a change brought about by God) Salvation becomes so important that the regenerate will forsake all to obtain it.

Mathew 13:44 “The kingdom of heaven is like treasure hidden in a field, which a man found and covered up. Then in his joy he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field.
45 “Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a merchant in search of fine pearls, 46 who, on finding one pearl of great value, went and sold all that he had and bought it."

God Regenerates
God Justifies
God Sanctifies
God Glorifies

Salvation is of God beginning to end. Even the ability to accept Christ as Lord is a gift from God. A gift you will possess if you are regenerate.

If you love anything in this world more than Christ, then you are not Saved, if you do not repent, turn from your sin and accept Christ as Lord, you will die and go to Hell.

If Christ is not Lord of your life, then who or what is? Can it save you from Hell?

Disclaimer: This is not an attack on anyone or their Salvation, just an opinion strongly stated.

Soli Deo Gloria

 

[EdSutton]

JM is a Calvinist, He believes that God chooses whom will be saved, this removes any possibility of works salvation.

The Lordship position as taught by JM is that upon regeneration (a change brought about by God) Salvation becomes so important that the regenerate will forsake all to obtain it.

[Snipped]

Salvation is of God beginning to end. Even the ability to accept Christ as Lord is a gift from God. A gift you will possess if you are regenerate.

If you love anything in this world more than Christ, then you are not Saved, if you do not repent, turn from your sin and accept Christ as Lord, you will die and go to Hell.

If Christ is not Lord of your life, then who or what is?

Assuming regeneration equals salvation, the highlighted part of your post, makes no sense, IMO.

If you "have it" already, why is there still a need to "forsake all" in order to "obtain it?"

Incidentally, I like the hat in your 'picture.'

"Durn varmits!! Praise the Lord, and pass the ammunition!" :thumbs:

Ed

 

[Lou Martuneac]

Can you supply where JM said or wrote this and provide its context?

RB:

Yes, happy to.

In commenting on this passage, John MacArthur writes,

Our Lord gave this young man a test. He had to choose between his possessions and Jesus Christ. He failed the test. No matter what points of doctrine he affirmed, because he was unwilling to turn from what else he loved most, he could not be a disciple of Christ. Salvation is only for those who are willing to give Christ first place in their lives.

That citation from the 1994-revised and expanded edition of The Gospel According to Jesus is a revision of what John MacArthur first wrote. In the original edition, John MacArthur states:

Our Lord gave this young man a test. He had to choose between his possessions and Jesus Christ. He failed the test. No matter what he believed, since he was unwilling to forsake all, he could not be a disciple of Christ. Salvation is for those who are willing to forsake everything.

From his book Hard to Believe MacArthur wrote:

And he needed to be willing to submit to the Lord Jesus, even if it meant he had to give up all his earthly possessions. He might not ask, but the requirement for eternal life is the willingness to give it all up if he does.

MacArthur wrote,

“Salvation is for those who are willing to forsake everything.” (TGATJ, p. 78)

It is in his discussion of the rich young ruler. JM continues,

“And the issue here was clearly this man's salvation, not some higher level of discipleship subsequent to conversion. His question was about how to obtain eternal life.”(bold added)

There it is in context: How to be born again, how to become a Christian is the subject. JM's answer, “Salvation (the requirement for eternal life) is for those who are willing to forsake everything...give Christ first place....” (TGATJ, p. 78)

That theme runs like a thread through all three editions of TGATJ. That may sound noble, but that statement defines a gospel of faith plus works.

RB, (Dr. Bob) Do you believe, “Salvation is for those who are willing to forsake everything?


LM

 

[FERRON BRIMSTONE]

Assuming regeneration equals salvation, the highlighted part of your post, makes no sense, IMO.

If you "have it" already, why is there still a need to "forsake all" in order to "obtain it?"

Incidentally, I like the hat in your 'picture.'

"Durn varmits!! Praise the Lord, and pass the ammunition!" :thumbs:

Ed

Regeneration, Justification, Sanctification and Glorification are different parts of the process of Salvation.

Regeneration is the " new birth" , being made alive or new.

Through Regeneration we are awakened so that we may respond to the call to Salvation. Similar to Christ calling Lazarus to come out of the grave. Christ not only commanded Lazarus to come out He also gave him the power to do it, He Regenerated Lazarus.

Regeneration causes us to realize our sinfulness and our need for Christ.

Justification occurs when we ask forgiveness of our sins,repent and accept Christ as Lord and Savior. We are then Justified in His sight.

Sanctification is growing in Christ, this is dying to the flesh and becoming Holy. It is something the Christian will do their entire life with the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

Glorification is receiving our Glorified bodies and enter the presence of Christ as a part of the Bride.

Salvation is now complete.

 

[FERRON BRIMSTONE]

What John Macarthur himself says about the Lordship debate-

Introduction to Lordship Salvation


Clarifying the Lordship debate

 

[webdog]

Do you accept Christ's statement to Nicodemus that "Ye must be born again?" That means to be saved. Nicodemus accepted that command, repented of his sins, and was saved. The rich young ruler was unwilling to change the lord of his life (money) and went away forever lost.

I know what it means...thanks

I don't see "repented of his sins and was saved" in the text. Which Bible are you reading?

 

[Lou Martuneac]

Ferron:

I my post above I cited JM in context from several of his LS books where he states and reiterates the same theme. I invite you to discuss this.

MacArthur states:

Our Lord gave this young man a test. He had to choose between his possessions and Jesus Christ. He failed the test. No matter what he believed, since he was unwilling to forsake all, he could not be a disciple of Christ. Salvation is for those who are willing to forsake everything.

Do you believe this is an accurate interpretation of how the lost must be born again; be "willing to forsake everything?"


LM

 

[ReformedBaptist]

RB:

Yes, happy to.

MacArthur wrote,
It is in his discussion of the rich young ruler. JM continues, There it is in context: How to be born again, how to become a Christian is the subject. JM's answer, “Salvation is for those who are willing to forsake everything.” (TGATJ, p. 78)

That theme runs like a thread through all three editions of TGATJ. That may sound noble, but that statement defines a gospel of faith plus works.

RB, (Dr. Bob) Do you believe, “Salvation is for those who are willing to forsake everything?


LM

Is it possible to present a wider context for the sentences? I will understand if your answer is no as it may be a pain to type it out. Honestly, I don't trust your representation of JM's position.

However, this does not prevent me from answering the question, "Do I believe salvation is for those who are willing to forsake everything?" whether or not it represents JM's teaching.

I would answer the question biblically. What I mean by that is, aside from the background of the LS controvery, I would look at Scripture and its teaching with regard to salvation and the teaching regarding forsaking everything. So here we go...

I will take as my text 1 Peter 1, but my view should not be considered as limited to this text, but this text is a good summary of the salvation of God.

v.2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Those who are saved, or who are in possession of true salvation, are the elect of God, chosen according to the foreknowledge fo God the Father, and that before the world began. This salvation that was ours in eternity God has manifest in space and time, and is seen, though the sanctification of the Spirit and unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ.

v. 4 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Our salvation is wrought by God the Father through Jesus Christ who causes us to be born again to a living hope through the ressurection of Jesus Christ.

v. 5-6 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

God has given His elect an inheritance that is eternal and everlasting. And He who saved us, regenerated us, also does keep us by His power through faith in Him UNTO salvation which will be revealed. This text so far has taught me that God's salvation of His elect is not a single, one-time event. It was, and is, and is to come. I was elected, in space and time regenerated and sanctified, and in the future I will saved unto glorification. Justification, sanctification, glorification.

v. 14-16 As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance: But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

The elect of God are obedient children, not disobedient children. Our calling is a holy calling, and God does not call us to uncleaness. Therefore, those who have received true salvation, who are the elect of God, who have obeyed the GOspel, who have been sanctified by the Holy Spirit, who are kept by the power of God, the same also live and walk in holiness.

v. 22-25 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away: But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

Our obedience to the truth, which truth is meant the Gospel also called the Word of God, is through the Spirit of God and not of ourselves. This obedience by the grace of God produces unfeigned and holy love of the brethren.

This, very briefly, is how I understand salvation.

What is meant by forsake everything according to Scripture?

The one who does not forsake everything to follow Jesus are not the ones who will inherit eternal life. This is seen in Scripture in the teaching of the Lord Jesus. It is taught in the context of Gospel invitations. Not the silly invitations we see in churches to an alter. But what is meant by Scripture in inviting and calling men to salvation. Here is one such instance.

For which of you, intending to build a tower, sitteth not down first, and counteth the cost, whether he have sufficient to finish it? 29Lest haply, after he hath laid the foundation, and is not able to finish it, all that behold it begin to mock him, Saying, This man began to build, and was not able to finish. Or what king, going to make war against another king, sitteth not down first, and consulteth whether he be able with ten thousand to meet him that cometh against him with twenty thousand? Or else, while the other is yet a great way off, he sendeth an ambassage, and desireth conditions of peace. 33So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:28-33

There is no such thing as a Christian who is not a disciple of Jesus Christ. In Matthew 19:28-29 we also see this, but put differently to the Apostles:

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. And every one that hath forsaken houses, or brethren, or sisters, or father, or mother, or wife, or children, or lands, for my name's sake, shall receive an hundredfold, and shall inherit everlasting life.

Those who do not forsake all things cannot be Jesus' disciples. And those who have forsaken all things to follow Jesus are those who shall inherit everlasting life. Those who say they are Jesus' disciples but yet continue a life of malice, wickedness, sin, debauchery, envy, strife, and any other acts that are contrary to godliness, cannot be thought to be true disciples of Jesus. These are they who profess to know Him, but by their works deny Him.

This is not to be contrued as the doctrine of prefectionsim. It ought to be understood in this manner:

For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. Titus 2:11-14

Therefore, when we read "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Eph 2:8-9 it should not be understood as salvation apart from godliness. If a man have the grace of God that "bringeth salvation" the same has been taught by God to deny ungodliness and worldly lust and to live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world. As it is written,

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." 1 John 2:4

And again,

"He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. " verse 6 of the same chapter, and again, "He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now." verse 9

And again,

"If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him." verse 29.

And James bodly declares, "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." James 2:17.

Now that I have briefly defined my terms, namely what is meant by salvation and what is meant by forsaking everything, I will restate the question posed to me:

"Do I believe salvation is for those who are willing to forsake everything?"

Yes. Those who have not forsaken all to follow Jesus are not the ones who possess salvation.

 

[EdSutton]

Is it possible to present a wider context for the sentences? I will understand if your answer is no as it may be a pain to type it out. Honestly, I don't trust your representation of JM's position.

However, this does not prevent me from answering the question, "Do I believe salvation is for those who are willing to forsake everything?" whether or not it represents JM's teaching.

I would answer the question biblically. What I mean by that is, aside from the background of the LS controvery, I would look at Scripture and its teaching with regard to salvation and the teaching regarding forsaking everything. So here we go...

I will take as my text 1 Peter 1, but my view should not be considered as limited to this text, but this text is a good summary of the salvation of God.



Those who are saved, or who are in possession of true salvation, are the elect of God, chosen according to the foreknowledge fo God the Father, and that before the world began. This salvation that was ours in eternity God has manifest in space and time, and is seen, though the sanctification of the Spirit and unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ.



Our salvation is wrought by God the Father through Jesus Christ who causes us to be born again to a living hope through the ressurection of Jesus Christ.



God has given His elect an inheritance that is eternal and everlasting. And He who saved us, regenerated us, also does keep us by His power through faith in Him UNTO salvation which will be revealed. This text so far has taught me that God's salvation of His elect is not a single, one-time event. It was, and is, and is to come. I was elected, in space and time regenerated and sanctified, and in the future I will saved unto glorification. Justification, sanctification, glorification.



The elect of God are obedient children, not disobedient children. Our calling is a holy calling, and God does not call us to uncleaness. Therefore, those who have received true salvation, who are the elect of God, who have obeyed the GOspel, who have been sanctified by the Holy Spirit, who are kept by the power of God, the same also live and walk in holiness.



Our obedience to the truth, which truth is meant the Gospel also called the Word of God, is through the Spirit of God and not of ourselves. This obedience by the grace of God produces unfeigned and holy love of the brethren.

This, very briefly, is how I understand salvation.

What is meant by forsake everything according to Scripture?

The one who does not forsake everything to follow Jesus are not the ones who will inherit eternal life. This is seen in Scripture in the teaching of the Lord Jesus. It is taught in the context of Gospel invitations. Not the silly invitations we see in churches to an alter. But what is meant by Scripture in inviting and calling men to salvation. Here is one such instance.



There is no such thing as a Christian who is not a disciple of Jesus Christ. In Matthew 19:28-29 we also see this, but put differently to the Apostles:



Those who do not forsake all things cannot be Jesus' disciples. And those who have forsaken all things to follow Jesus are those who shall inherit everlasting life. Those who say they are Jesus' disciples but yet continue a life of malice, wickedness, sin, debauchery, envy, strife, and any other acts that are contrary to godliness, cannot be thought to be true disciples of Jesus. These are they who profess to know Him, but by their works deny Him.

This is not to be contrued as the doctrine of prefectionsim. It ought to be understood in this manner:



Therefore, when we read "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Eph 2:8-9 it should not be understood as salvation apart from godliness. If a man have the grace of God that "bringeth salvation" the same has been taught by God to deny ungodliness and worldly lust and to live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world. As it is written,

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." 1 John 2:4

And again,

"He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. " verse 6 of the same chapter, and again, "He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now." verse 9

And again,

"If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him." verse 29.

And James bodly declares, "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." James 2:17.

Now that I have briefly defined my terms, namely what is meant by salvation and what is meant by forsaking everything, I will restate the question posed to me:



Yes. Those who have not forsaken all to follow Jesus are not the ones who possess salvation.

Maybe we are finally getting somewhere, although I am still not certain. I wish I could say the above answer is 'clear', but unfortunately, I cannot, for it still seems to be loaded with all sorts of "wiggle room" in the explanation.

So despite your previously slyly expressed opinion of my own skills as an "exegete," - skills which I have never claimed, BTW, I will ask another question or three, following up on the above post.

Is what you are saying consistent with the view that I posted three times of Dr. John H. Gerstner, another 'advocate' of Lordship salvation, where he said these things, referring to Zane C. Hodges in The Gospel Under Siege? (My emphases)

Hodges fundamentally misunderstands the nature of the issue when he thinks that works are some sort of addendum, something beyond the faith itself. We maintain that it is implicit in the faith from the beginning" (WRONGLY DIVIDING THE WORD OF TRUTH, A Critique of Dispensationalism, John H. Gerstner, 1991, p.226)

Hodges, and virtually all dispensationalists, do not see the elementary difference between non-meritorious "requirements," "conditions, necessary obligations," "indispensable duties," and musts, as the natural outworking of true faith, in distinction from faith in the Savior plus meritorious works as the very basis of Salvation. (Ibid., p. 226)

Dr. Gerstner essentially repeats this, here (just in case you missed it, I assume):

Again, this fundamental failure to comprehend is evident. Lordship teaching does not "add works," as if faith were not sufficient. The "works" are part of the definition of faith (Ibid. p.250)

I do not accept that ANY works, be they supposedly "meritorious" or "non-meritorious" are any "part of the definition of faith," which is very different from what should be the results of faith, which I believe everyone posting on these threads has agreed should occur, and in fact when works are falsely placed in the definition of faith, change the definition of believe/faith to "faithfulness'" instead, making 'faith' (and grace) a horse of a completely different color. (Rom. 4:1-8; 16a; 11:6; Eph. 2:8-9) Do you agree with Dr. Gerstner or me, and I have several posts that express my views, including some on repentance, in this, since the two positions appear to be, and in fact are, mutually exclusive. I do not particulartly care what Dr. John F. MacArthur, Lou Martuneac, Dr. James P. Boyce, Dr. Martin Luther, or Dr. John Calvin believe (Yes, both Martin Luther and John Calvin had earned doctorates), or 'the Savoy Declaration' or any other Statement of Faith declares here, but rather what ReformedBaptist believes.

This shouldn't be a difficult question that elicits multiple pages of response, IMO.

Ed

 

[ReformedBaptist]

This shouldn't be a difficult question that elicits multiple pages of response, IMO.

Ed

I was going to give a reponse to you until I read this. Yeah...why use a bunch of Scripture on the subject...just confuses the issue I suppose. :laugh: :laugh:

Good luck with that. :tonofbricks:

RB

 

[EdSutton]

I was going to give a reponse to you until I read this. Yeah...why use a bunch of Scripture on the subject...just confuses the issue I suppose. :laugh: :laugh:

Good luck with that. :tonofbricks:

RB

I assure you I do not mind "a bunch of Scripture on that subject" (or on any subject) in any manner, whatsoever. I do not care for what some other particular group's "Statement of Faith" says, when I am not addressing that group.

I also realize you would have answered my question, were it not that you likely had to prepare soup for the family's dinner, this afternoon.

Ed

 

[ReformedBaptist]

I assure you I do not mind "a bunch of Scripture on that subject" (or on any subject) in any manner, whatsoever. I do not care for what some other particular group's "Statement of Faith" says, when I am not addressing that group.

I also realize you would have answered my question, were it not that you likely had to prepare soup for the family's dinner, this afternoon.

Ed

What in the world are you talking about? What does the comment mean that your making about my family?

 

[DHK]

Those who are saved, or who are in possession of true salvation, are the elect of God, chosen according to the foreknowledge fo God the Father, and that before the world began. This salvation that was ours in eternity God has manifest in space and time, and is seen, though the sanctification of the Spirit and unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ.

This infers that man has no choice. Just because God knows ahead of time who is going to be saved and who is going to reject salvation does not mean he forces their hand. Man still has the choice to receive Christ or reject Him. There is no "forced salvation" with God. "Elect" as far as I understand the Bible never applies to the unbeliever, but only describes the believer.
Otherwise why the Great Commission? Why evangelize? God knows the elect. They will become Christians anyway. After all they are the elect are they not? They have no choice but to be saved whether we witness or not. As far as I understand your position, it negates the very reason one must carry out the Great Commission.

Our salvation is wrought by God the Father through Jesus Christ who causes us to be born again to a living hope through the ressurection of Jesus Christ.

"Christ who causes us to be born again??"
Then why did he not cause the rich young ruler to be born again?
That wasn't very loving on His part was it? Especially when the Bible testifies about God that "He is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." Your view seems to have a contradiction in it. Christ causes no one or forces no one to be saved. (some Muslims do). We make that choice. That is made clear in John 3:18. If we choose Christ we are not condemned. If we don't choose Christ we are condemned already. There is a free will, a choice to be made.
What Christ wrought on the cross is the grace that was manifest to us. His salvation was provided there on the cross of Calvary. But it was provided as a free gift for all who desire it. They must make the choice to receive. Man was made in God's image and likeness, which involves having that choice, that ability to reason.

God has given His elect an inheritance that is eternal and everlasting. And He who saved us, regenerated us, also does keep us by His power through faith in Him UNTO salvation which will be revealed. This text so far has taught me that God's salvation of His elect is not a single, one-time event. It was, and is, and is to come. I was elected, in space and time regenerated and sanctified, and in the future I will saved unto glorification. Justification, sanctification, glorification.

This entire description describes a Christian, as does the word "elect." It has nothing to do with the unsaved. The context is not written about the unsaved. Peter is writing to the saved. The topic is not about salvation. Salvation is indeed a one time event. Sanctification is a life-long process.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
--That is a one time event. It happens only one time in a person's life.
Sanctification is a life-long process.
We become God's elect after we are saved. But God knew about it before we were saved.

The elect of God are obedient children, not disobedient children. Our calling is a holy calling, and God does not call us to uncleaness. Therefore, those who have received true salvation, who are the elect of God, who have obeyed the GOspel, who have been sanctified by the Holy Spirit, who are kept by the power of God, the same also live and walk in holiness.

If your interpretation of this verse is correct why did Peter have to write it at all. He writes it as a command. We are to be obedient children. Many of them were not; they were disobedient. Just look back at the Corinthian Church. Many of them were disobedient, even coming to celebrate the Lord's Supper when they were drunk. They also were the elect of God. God also called them to a holy calling, but they were not being holy. This is a command; but not everyone was obeying it. Peter is giving encouragement, admonition. He is not saying that they were all in this state already. If they were there would be no purpose in even writing these things.

Our obedience to the truth, which truth is meant the Gospel also called the Word of God, is through the Spirit of God and not of ourselves. This obedience by the grace of God produces unfeigned and holy love of the brethren.

This, very briefly, is how I understand salvation.

Our obedience to the truth is simply one of the evidences of our salvation.
See what John says:
1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

What is meant by forsake everything according to Scripture?

The one who does not forsake everything to follow Jesus are not the ones who will inherit eternal life. This is seen in Scripture in the teaching of the Lord Jesus. It is taught in the context of Gospel invitations. Not the silly invitations we see in churches to an alter. But what is meant by Scripture in inviting and calling men to salvation. Here is one such instance.

There is an "easy believism" philosophy. I also have my doubts about that movement. However, to say that "the one who does not forsake everything to follow Jesus are not the ones who will inherit eternal life," is a false statement.
How old were you when you were saved? When you were saved did you give up everything? Forsake family, friends, job, give away all your money, sacrifice absolutely everything to follow Christ? I doubt it. Why are you saying that it must be so for others when you do not impose those conditions on yourself?
We grow gradually as believers in the Lord. What did Jude say:

Jude 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
--If you are already "perfect" what is there to build up?
If you are already going to forsake everything and mature enough to do, what would be left to be built up? Your position does not make much sense.
I have met some Christians that have forsaken all. But they weren't new Christians.

There is no such thing as a Christian who is not a disciple of Jesus Christ. In Matthew 19:28-29 we also see this, but put differently to the Apostles:

Again, a false statement. I wasn't baptized until two years after I was saved. According to your statement I am not saved because I wasn't a disciple after i was first saved. This teaching is false. It leaves no room for growth in a believer. In fact it would leave almost the entire Corinthian Church as unbelievers. :tear:

Those who do not forsake all things cannot be Jesus' disciples. And those who have forsaken all things to follow Jesus are those who shall inherit everlasting life. Those who say they are Jesus' disciples but yet continue a life of malice, wickedness, sin, debauchery, envy, strife, and any other acts that are contrary to godliness, cannot be thought to be true disciples of Jesus. These are they who profess to know Him, but by their works deny Him.

This is not to be contrued as the doctrine of prefectionsim. It ought to be understood in this manner:

A Christian' life is a changed life. If there is no change it is doubtful that he is a Christian. That has nothing to do with discipleship.

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
--1John 3 also explains the same thing. Those who habitually live in a lifestyle of sin are the same ones that are not born again. This has nothing to do with discipleship.

Therefore, when we read "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." Eph 2:8-9 it should not be understood as salvation apart from godliness. If a man have the grace of God that "bringeth salvation" the same has been taught by God to deny ungodliness and worldly lust and to live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world.

You left out a very important part of the verse. Why so?
Titus 2:12 Teaching us that,
The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men teaching us...to deny ungodliness and live soberly and righteously, etc.
Those qualities are learned gradually. They are taught. They are not automatic. It "teaches us." Teaching is a process, and sometimes takes a long time, depending on the student.

But salvation is a one time event.

As it is written,

"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." 1 John 2:4

And again,

"He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. " verse 6 of the same chapter, and again, "He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now." verse 9

And again,

"If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him." verse 29.

And James bodly declares, "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." James 2:17.

Now that I have briefly defined my terms, namely what is meant by salvation and what is meant by forsaking everything, I will restate the question posed to me:

Yes. Those who have not forsaken all to follow Jesus are not the ones who possess salvation.

False. Show me how many, including yourself, how many on this board, have forsaken all, and I really mean all, in order to follow Jesus. I doubt if you will even find one percent. Not many Christians on the BB are there?

 

[EdSutton]

What in the world are you talking about? What does the comment mean that your making about my family?

My comment in no way is designed to cast any aspersions about anyone's family, and the comment certainly doesn't have one earthly thing to do with Lordship salvation, by any stretch. (Incidentally, FTR, I do happen to cook in the kitchen more than does my bride (and am probably also better at it for a few more things than is she, although I don't do any of the outdoor grilling ), so I certainly see nothing wrong with any man cooking anything. And I am the one who "home cans" everything we preserve, as well, although she sometimes helps me to 'prep' the foods for canning.)

However, if one would really rather not answer the question, one excuse ("making soup") is just as good and works about as well as another, I would suppose.

I have recently previously twice posted the above quotes by Dr. Gerstner, but they seemingly were not deemed worthy of any response, by any of the readers, including yourself, and who happens to be a participant, of the thread(s)

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1270051&postcount=6

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1267712&postcount=57

whereon they were posted, and in fact, one time was the very person to whom I was directly responding (although I did manage to garner a couple of insults on the thread(s), effectively one or two false allegations by association [my supposed not believing in repentance (although I am on record on the BB, with at least ten posts showing I do believe that repentance is necessary for salvation), and my supposed notbelieving in 'Lordship' (another false allegation, for I, in fact insist that the Lordship of Christ is so clearly declared as to not even be an issue) and a questioning of my integrity, by another poster, along the way.]

I am not particularly bothered by the insults, FTR. But why is that there were no substantive responses to my queries??

The questions I pose seem straightforward enough, at least IMO.

Ed

 

[ReformedBaptist]

This infers that man has no choice. Just because God knows ahead of time who is going to be saved and who is going to reject salvation does not mean he forces their hand. Man still has the choice to receive Christ or reject Him. There is no "forced salvation" with God. "Elect" as far as I understand the Bible never applies to the unbeliever, but only describes the believer.
Otherwise why the Great Commission? Why evangelize? God knows the elect. They will become Christians anyway. After all they are the elect are they not? They have no choice but to be saved whether we witness or not. As far as I understand your position, it negates the very reason one must carry out the Great Commission.

No, you inferred man has no choice. Nice strawman though. :thumbs:

"Christ who causes us to be born again??"
Then why did he not cause the rich young ruler to be born again?
That wasn't very loving on His part was it? Especially when the Bible testifies about God that "He is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance." Your view seems to have a contradiction in it. Christ causes no one or forces no one to be saved. (some Muslims do). We make that choice. That is made clear in John 3:18. If we choose Christ we are not condemned. If we don't choose Christ we are condemned already. There is a free will, a choice to be made.

What Christ wrought on the cross is the grace that was manifest to us. His salvation was provided there on the cross of Calvary. But it was provided as a free gift for all who desire it. They must make the choice to receive. Man was made in God's image and likeness, which involves having that choice, that ability to reason.

It is not for me to answer why God saves one and not the other. He does all things according to His own will, and He does all things well. You be the judge of God sir, not me. Again, you embedded your strawman into this reply as well.

No one desires God my friend. Your doctrine on free-will is false and heretical. It is, as far as I can see so far, semi-pelagian or full pelagianism.

This entire description describes a Christian, as does the word "elect." It has nothing to do with the unsaved. The context is not written about the unsaved. Peter is writing to the saved. The topic is not about salvation. Salvation is indeed a one time event. Sanctification is a life-long process.

Wrong. The testimony of Scripture shows that salvation is justification, sanctification, and glorification. I have proven this already. You have been unable to refute it.

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
--That is a one time event. It happens only one time in a person's life.
Sanctification is a life-long process.
We become God's elect after we are saved. But God knew about it before we were saved.

You are equating my use of salvation with justification and making a categorical error. I have shown by the word of God that encompassed in God's salvation of His elect is justification, sanctification, and glorification. Justification is indeed a one time event. Sancticiation is indeed a life-time event. And glorification is indeed an eternal event. We do not "become" God's elect. This is the heresy of the Arminians. If God knew about it, as you suppose, before we were "saved" then He "knew about it" before the world began. And if He knew about it before the world began then we were elect before the world began. And if He knew infallible, as you suppose, who would choose him, then wheres is the free-will as you describe it? Unless indeed you wish to impugn the foreknowledge of God?

God either knows infallibly from the beginning or He doesn't. You in quite the pickle now my friend.

If your interpretation of this verse is correct why did Peter have to write it at all. He writes it as a command. We are to be obedient children. Many of them were not; they were disobedient. Just look back at the Corinthian Church. Many of them were disobedient, even coming to celebrate the Lord's Supper when they were drunk. They also were the elect of God. God also called them to a holy calling, but they were not being holy. This is a command; but not everyone was obeying it. Peter is giving encouragement, admonition. He is not saying that they were all in this state already. If they were there would be no purpose in even writing these things.

Your confusing holiness, righteousness, godliness with perfectionism.

Our obedience to the truth is simply one of the evidences of our salvation.
See what John says:
1 John 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

The Scripture says obedience to the Gospel. "But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you." Romans 6:17

But I can agree with your statement too..

There is an "easy believism" philosophy. I also have my doubts about that movement. However, to say that "the one who does not forsake everything to follow Jesus are not the ones who will inherit eternal life," is a false statement.
How old were you when you were saved? When you were saved did you give up everything? Forsake family, friends, job, give away all your money, sacrifice absolutely everything to follow Christ? I doubt it. Why are you saying that it must be so for others when you do not impose those conditions on yourself?

I disagree, based on Jesus' teaching, that my statement is false. I think I am re-stating what He taught. Unless we forsake all things, we cannot be His disciples. And I am not aware of those who can be christians but not be disciples.

The Lord caused me to be born again when I was 20 years old. I am 35 now. And yes, I forsook all to follow Him.

We grow gradually as believers in the Lord. What did Jude say:

Jude 1:20 But ye, beloved, building up yourselves on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Ghost,
--If you are already "perfect" what is there to build up?
If you are already going to forsake everything and mature enough to do, what would be left to be built up? Your position does not make much sense.
I have met some Christians that have forsaken all. But they weren't new Christians.

Again, your confusing Jesus' call to Himself with perfectionism.

Again, a false statement. I wasn't baptized until two years after I was saved. According to your statement I am not saved because I wasn't a disciple after i was first saved. This teaching is false. It leaves no room for growth in a believer. In fact it would leave almost the entire Corinthian Church as unbelievers.

You are greatly confused. Why do you equate baptism with being a disciple? What I am say is that there is no such thing as a Christian who is not also a disciple, or follower, of Jesus. If so, where are these people who are Christians but do not follow Jesus?

Christian' life is a changed life. If there is no change it is doubtful that he is a Christian. That has nothing to do with discipleship. 2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
--1John 3 also explains the same thing. Those who habitually live in a lifestyle of sin are the same ones that are not born again. This has nothing to do with discipleship.

What is and how are you defining this "disciplship" ? Methinks its an invention of Baptist tradition. It doesn't sound like what hte Scripture speaks of when it speaks of being Christ's disciples.

 

[ReformedBaptist]

You left out a very important part of the verse. Why so?
Titus 2:12 Teaching us that,
The grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men teaching us...to deny ungodliness and live soberly and righteously, etc.
Those qualities are learned gradually. They are taught. They are not automatic. It "teaches us." Teaching is a process, and sometimes takes a long time, depending on the student.

But salvation is a one time event.

I told the board from the beginning I was not making an exhaustive reply. So why do you ask me if I am leaving out a part of a verse? Are you trying to imply infidelity to the Scriptures?

Again, DHK, I have never advocated perfectionism. Why do you keep reponding to my posts as if I am? Nor have I ever advocated instant sanctification. So what is it that your responding to?

Salvation is NOT a one time event. This is an incomplete and unclear at best, and really bad teaching at worst. Within salvation is justifcation, sanctification, and glorification.


Justification
"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek." Romans 1:16 "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation." Romans 10:10.

Sanctification
And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Eph 6:17 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. Phil 2:12 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: 2 Thess 2:13

Glorification
Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 2 Tim 2:10 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation? Heb 1:14 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation. Heb 9:28 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. 1 Peter 1:5 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:9 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. Rev 12:10

False. Show me how many, including yourself, how many on this board, have forsaken all, and I really mean all, in order to follow Jesus. I doubt if you will even find one percent. Not many Christians on the BB are there?

I forsook all things to follow Jesus from the moment I was born from above.