Lordship Salvation: Is it false?

[canadyjd]

To be saved a person must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
To be damned a person must reject the Lord Jesus Christ.
It is as simple as that.

To be saved a person must be "born again". If a person must reject Christ to "be damned", it would be better not to proclaim the gospel to anyone. Let's just keep them ignorant so they won't be damned.

Did Christ teach that a person could love something else in this world more than Himself and still be saved.
The question is moot.

The question is not "moot", since our Lord Jesus spoke to this very issue.

Salvation is by faith and faith alone. It is a red herring to what salvation is.

Unless you believe "faith" must include "repentance", which many who reject LS believe. They will say, "but repentance is not a work", to which the LS advocates will say, "neither is Lordship". So....What does Jesus teach on the matter?

If I say yes, (but the answer is no), then Peter obviously was not saved. He denied Christ three times. He loved his own life, his own pride, his own fear, his own reputation, more than Christ. He denied him. Therefore you and other LS advocates have just condemned Peter as an unsaved person. For Christ was not first in his life. He loved himself more than he loved Christ. He denied Christ.

First of all, I haven't condemned anyone as unsaved, nor have I questioned anyone's salvation if they do not believe as I do. I haven't accused those who reject LS as preaching a "non-saving false gospel", as those who reject LS accuse LS advocates of preaching a "non-saving false gospel".

Peter, nor any other disciple, achieved sinless perfection and LS advocates, that I have seen, do not teach sinless perfection.

For all his faults, Peter and the others did forsake everything to follow Jesus. They left their professions and their families.

Peter was ready to face dozens of armed men with a single sword in order to protect Jesus. He was willing to die, and Christ told him to put the sword away. He put his sword away, confused and tired, and fled.

peace to youraying:

 

[DHK]

To be saved a person must be "born again". If a person must reject Christ to "be damned", it would be better not to proclaim the gospel to anyone. Let's just keep them ignorant so they won't be damned.

You are grasping at straws.
Jesus said quite plainly:

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

It sounds very simple to me.
If you receive him you are saved.
If you reject him you are lost.
It is a simple message.

 

[canadyjd]

Jesus said quite plainly:

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

John 3:36 was spoken by John the Baptizer, not Jesus.

It sounds very simple to me.
If you receive him you are saved.
If you reject him you are lost.
It is a simple message.

Receive Him as what? Receive "Him" or recieve information about "Him"? Many people understand the information "about" Jesus. Do they really "receive Him"?

peace to youraying:

 

[jcjordan]

You are grasping at straws.
Jesus said quite plainly:

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

It sounds very simple to me.
If you receive him you are saved.
If you reject him you are lost.
It is a simple message.

"Not receiving"does not =rejecting.
Just because I don't receive a new car, doesn't necessarily mean that I've rejected one.

 

[canadyjd]

Jesus is speaking of discipleship, not salvation.

I'll repost what I said:

However, not knowing the context of the statement, it could be this person is commenting on scripture, where our Lord Jesus says, "He who loves father or mother more than Me is not worthy of Me; and he who loves son or daughter more than Me is not worthy of Me."(Matt 10:37)

It is our Lord Jesus who is saying that those who claim to be Christians must love Him more than anything else in the world, otherwise they are not worthy of Him.

Now, is it correct to take "not worthy of Me" to mean "not saved"? Well, the following verses appear to support the idea those "not worthy" are "not saved".

(39) "He who has found his life shall lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake shall find it."

"found his life" equates to loving something else in the world more than Jesus, and therefore "lost". He that "lost his life for My sake" refers to those who are saved.

You are saying that our Lord Jesus was speaking of discipleship, not salvation, when He said, (39) "He who has found his life shall lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake shall find it."

So you think "He who has found his life shall lose it," doesn't mean a person is lost, or is without salvation? What does our Lord mean, then, when He says the person shall lose his life? In what way shall a person lose his life if he doesn't submit to the Lordship of Christ in discipleship? Is he only losing a "temporal salvation" or a "salvation from sin" as some have advocated? Is that what you believe our Lord Jesus is teaching? The person is still saved, but, in some way his life is lost because he chose the things of the world over our Lord Jesus. How is his life lost? What has he lost?

So you think,"and he who has lost his life for My sake shall find it," isn't refering to salvation, it is just refering to discipleship? What has he found in discipleship? Salvation from sin? A temporal salvation, in this world only? He hasn't found the Kingdom of Heaven?

The disciples will be murdered for their faith. In what way have they found their life if Christ is only refering to discipleship? In fact, what good was discipleship, if Christ is only refering to discipleship, if their lives are taken from them? How can they be disciples if they lose their lives for Christ's sake?

peace to youraying:

 

[DHK]

I'll repost what I said:You are saying that our Lord Jesus was speaking of discipleship, not salvation, when He said, (39) "He who has found his life shall lose it, and he who has lost his life for My sake shall find it."

So you think "He who has found his life shall lose it," doesn't mean a person is lost, or is without salvation? What does our Lord mean, then, when He says the person shall lose his life? In what way shall a person lose his life if he doesn't submit to the Lordship of Christ in discipleship? Is he only losing a "temporal salvation" or a "salvation from sin" as some have advocated? Is that what you believe our Lord Jesus is teaching? The person is still saved, but, in some way his life is lost because he chose the things of the world over our Lord Jesus. How is his life lost? What has he lost?

This is all about discipleship. Not a word of salvation is in these verses. They are even addressed to his disciples.

The entire chapter is devoted to instructions to his disciples before he sends them out. Check the first verse of the chapter:'
Matthew 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
--Are you now going to set forth a case (according to LS theology) that before this time his 12 disciples were not saved. That would be the logical outcome of LS thinking.

Matthew 10:39 He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Even in this life, if you are a believer and spend this life living for self and the material things of this world (you find your life) you will lose it; that is you will lose reward at the judgement seat of Christ, and even in this life on earth. The most miserable person on this earth is a Christian outside of the will of God. You won't be happy with your life until you "lose it."

But if you "lose your life," forget about your reputation, your money, your family, and whatever ties you may have, and live for Christ alone, then you will find great reward, not only in this life but in the life to come--meaning reward at the judgement seat of Christ.
--There is nothing here about salvation; it is all about discipleship; forsaking all and following Christ.

So you think,"and he who has lost his life for My sake shall find it," isn't refering to salvation, it is just refering to discipleship?

Absolutely! It can't be any other way. The 12 were already saved. If your position were to have any logic in it then I would have to conclude that the 12 were not saved up until this point. Is that what you are teaching?

What has he found in discipleship? Salvation from sin? A temporal salvation, in this world only? He hasn't found the Kingdom of Heaven?

None of the above. He has found great reward: both on this earth and reward in heaven. Lay up your treasure in heaven where moth and rust doth not corrupt, and thieves do not break in.
What great reward! What joy it is! in serving Jesus. I would rather lose my life in serving Him, then "finding my selfish carnal self" and fulfill the lusts of the flesh, and thus lose reward at the judgement seat of Christ.

The disciples will be murdered for their faith. In what way have they found their life if Christ is only refering to discipleship? In fact, what good was discipleship, if Christ is only refering to discipleship, if their lives are taken from them? How can they be disciples if they lose their lives for Christ's sake?
peace to youraying:

When Stephen was martyred, he looked up into heaven and saw Jesus standing on the right hand of God waiting to welcome him home. What a glorious sight that must have been. He lost his life. But in the end he gained more than he lost. Our life here is temporary.
We are but pilgrims and strangers passing through a foreign land. Our real home is heaven, of which I am a citizen. I long to be there in the sweet bye and bye. O Lord Jesus, come quickly.

Acts 8:3-4 As for Saul, he made havock of the church, entering into every house, and haling men and women committed them to prison.
4 Therefore they that were scattered abroad went every where preaching the word.

The flames of the martyrs have done more in spreading the gospel than any other one factor in the history of Christianity.

 

[Allan]

To be saved a person must be "born again". If a person must reject Christ to "be damned", it would be better not to proclaim the gospel to anyone. Let's just keep them ignorant so they won't be damned.

This is just silly JD. Are you saying that if you just shut your mouth people will go to heaven? Did you forget about Rom 1-4?

Secondly yes, a man is damned for rejection of the truths God reveals whether they be simple or the gospel itself (which is the culmination of all truth). However only God knows when they have rejected absolutely. And we see this as we take notice not only that it states but also how many times the chapter it states "and for this cause, or therefore, ect.. God gave them over".. and also notice that it was after He had revealed spiritual truths to them (Rom 1:19).

Spiritual truth are those truths which man can not come to know by himself without God's direct intervention of revealing these truth to man Himself.

But there are many more which proclaim that man is 'damned' due to rejection and not before. One of the plainest is that of 2 Thes 2:10-12.

This is speaking of the followers of the anti-christ (no can dispute their damnation, agreed?). Yet listen to what it states as to How, why, and when they were damned:

2Th 2:10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
2Th 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2Th 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

(how) They did not receive the truth, (when)and it was for that reason God sent them a strong delusion to believe a lie. (why) they were damned because they did not believe the truth.

So yes, scripture is absolutely clear about why people are condemned/damned and that is because they chose not to believe those spiritual truths God revealed to them.

 

[Allan]

"Not receiving"does not =rejecting.
Just because I don't receive a new car, doesn't necessarily mean that I've rejected one.

Yes, actually it does. (2 Thes 2:10-12 is just one example)

Only God knows when He will "give you over" and send forth a strong delusion to believe a lie (or more literally the lie that you have chosen over the truth).

 

[Revmitchell]

There is clear evidence why churches are spiritless.

 

[Allan]

There is clear evidence why churches are spiritless.

Are you commenting on my post or the thread in general? :wavey:

 

[canadyjd]

This is all about discipleship. Not a word of salvation is in these verses. They are even addressed to his disciples.

The entire chapter is devoted to instructions to his disciples before he sends them out. Check the first verse of the chapter:'
Matthew 10:1 And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease.
--Are you now going to set forth a case (according to LS theology) that before this time his 12 disciples were not saved. That would be the logical outcome of LS thinking.

Jesus is giving them instructions about how to preach to the lost. Matt:10:6-7 "but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (7) And as you go, preach saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand'."

10:22 "And you will be hated by all on account of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved"

Matthew 10:39 "He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.

Jesus is talking about salvation. Jesus does not separate "believers" from "disciples", they are one and the same.

But if you "lose your life," forget about your reputation, your money, your family, and whatever ties you may have, and live for Christ alone, then you will find great reward, not only in this life but in the life to come--meaning reward at the judgement seat of Christ.

Jesus says they will lose their life. He does not say they will lose their reward. Jesus is refering to salvation. Jesus does not separate "believers" from "disciples" as you are maintaining. The passage is clear if you will accept it.

If your position were to have any logic in it then I would have to conclude that the 12 were not saved up until this point. Is that what you are teaching?

Jesus is giving the disciples instructions about how to preach to the lost. Your assumptions are contrary to the passage, making your conclusion just as contrary.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

This is just silly JD....

Scripture says you must be "born again". Scripture says that to be "born again" is a work of Holy Spirit, according to His will, that cannot be predicted or manipulated by men.

I maintain that scripture teaches that once Holy Spirit regenerates a person, they will respond to the gospel with repentance and faith, confessing Jesus as Lord.

For anyone to take one passage of scripture and try to maintain that "says it all about salvation" is not teaching the full gospel of Jesus Christ.

peace to youraying:

 

[Allan]

Scripture says you must be "born again". Scripture says that to be "born again" is a work of Holy Spirit, according to His will, that cannot be predicted or manipulated by men.

Of Course you must be born-again or saved. No said otherwise.
Of Course it is the work of the holy Spirit, no man can regenerate himself. Again no one stated otherwise.

I maintain that scripture teaches that once Holy Spirit regenerates a person, they will respond to the gospel with repentance and faith, confessing Jesus as Lord.

That is fine, you can maintian whatever you like. However regeneration is salvation according to scripture and not some pre-thing leading up to it.

If you would like to discuss it please come and do it here on this thread I set up months ago for just such a discission. I would greatly enjoy personally.

For anyone to take one passage of scripture and try to maintain that "says it all about salvation" is not teaching the full gospel of Jesus Christ.

True but for there to be even one scripture that contradicts it one must scrutize more closely that which they profess and not jsut discard scriptures they don't like. Agreed?


What I gave you was clearly and irrefutably stating a person is damned for or by not believing, and that was all I was saying.
peace to youraying:[/QUOTE]

 

[canadyjd]

Of Course you must be born-again or saved. No said otherwise.
Of Course it is the work of the holy Spirit, no man can regenerate himself. Again no one stated otherwise.

Your first response was that it was "silly". That indicated to me that you believed otherwise.

True but for there to be even one scripture that contradicts it one must scrutize more closely that which they profess and not jsut discard scriptures they don't like. Agreed?

We should harmonize scripture when we can. Some things must be held in "tension".

What I gave you was clearly and irrefutably stating a person is damned for or by not believing, and that was all I was saying.

It seems someone had said a person is condemned only for rejecting Jesus, or words to that effect. That was what I was refering to.

peace to youraying:

 

[DHK]

It seems someone had said a person is condemned only for rejecting Jesus, or words to that effect. That was what I was refering to.
peace to youraying:

"Except a man be born again you cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
If you reject the new birth, you are condemned for all eternity.
A person is condemned for the rejection Christ, which is in effect the rejection of the new birth.

 

[DHK]

Jesus is talking about salvation. Jesus does not separate "believers" from "disciples", they are one and the same.

That is only your opinion. You have no Scriptural foundation for that statement. He was speaking to his chosen 12, not to all the believers. There was a reason for that. Later on he sent out 70. Why the difference. The chosen 12 never changed (except for Judas). Your argument here holds no water.

Jesus says they will lose their life. He does not say they will lose their reward.

These men already had their salvation. Your position denies eternal security. Your position is that Peter, James and John could at any time lose their salvation, and in fact Jesus was telling them to do that. That is ridiculous. Why would Jesus tell them to lose their salvation if the subject if the topic is about salvation? It is not! It is about discipleship. If you lose your life for my sake (the sake of Christ) you will find it (find great reward in serving Christ). Both statement must be speaking of the same thing. If one half of the statement is speaking of salvation so must the other. If one half is speaking of discipleship, so must the other. Only the interpretation I gave you makes sense in the context. Discipleship requires sacrifice. Sacrifice brings reward after salvation; not before.

Jesus is refering to salvation. Jesus does not separate "believers" from "disciples" as you are maintaining.

Then you believe in a works based salvation.

The passage is clear if you will accept it. Jesus is giving the disciples instructions about how to preach to the lost. Your assumptions are contrary to the passage, making your conclusion just as contrary.

And these instructions are for the disciples to maintain their salvation? or for the disciples to get saved. You are preaching a works based salvation. He is addressing the disciples and no one else.

Your position makes no sense and even denies the sufficiency of the blood of Christ.

 

[canadyjd]

"Except a man be born again you cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
If you reject the new birth, you are condemned for all eternity.
A person is condemned for the rejection Christ, which is in effect the rejection of the new birth.

In context, the passage from John 3 says that being "born again" is a work done according to the will of Holy Spirit. It cannot be predicted nor manipulated by men. There is no mention of "rejecting the new birth". Can a child reject his birth? Of course not.

peace to youraying:

 

[canadyjd]

That is only your opinion. You have no Scriptural foundation for that statement. He was speaking to his chosen 12, not to all the believers.

I gave you the scripture, in context: I'll show you again.

Jesus is giving them instructions about how to preach to the lost. Matt:10:6-7 "but rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel (7) And as you go, preach saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand'....."

Jesus is giving His disciples instructions on how to preach to the lost. Since Jesus is telling us how to preach to the lost, we should listen to Him. When you ignore the context, you miss the point.

Then you believe in a works based salvation.

I believe salvation leads to living your life for the cause of Christ. It includes maturing in your faith, recovering when you fall, persevering when the going gets tough. Jesus did not separate "believers" from "disciples" and neither should we.

And these instructions are for the disciples to maintain their salvation? or for the disciples to get saved. You are preaching a works based salvation. He is addressing the disciples and no one else.

You continue to ignore the context. It is clear if you will accept it.

peace to youraying:

 

[DHK]

In context, the passage from John 3 says that being "born again" is a work done according to the will of Holy Spirit. It cannot be predicted nor manipulated by men. There is no mention of "rejecting the new birth". Can a child reject his birth? Of course not.

peace to youraying:

I don't accept your interpretation.
Can a child, one old enough to understand the gospel and believe, reject his adoptive parents. Yes he can. We are adopted into the family of God, in as much as it is called a new birth.
Read on in the same passage:

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
--I am sure that you will disagree with me on the meaning of this passage. But the meaning of it is crucial to a proper understanding of the entire passage.

 

[canadyjd]

I don't accept your interpretation.
Can a child, one old enough to understand the gospel and believe, reject his adoptive parents. Yes he can. We are adopted into the family of God, in as much as it is called a new birth.

Adoption is not mentioned in this passage. As such, Nic at night is somewhat amazed at the words, mentioning coming from the womb when he is old. Adoption is not the point.

Read on in the same passage:

John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
--I am sure that you will disagree with me on the meaning of this passage. But the meaning of it is crucial to a proper understanding of the entire passage.

Well, you didn't tell me your interpretation, so I can't say if I agree or not.

What about the one that has been mentioned.

3 v. 8 "The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

Wind and "Spirit" are used here as a play on words. They both are "pneuma" in the greek. The word "wishes" means a deliberate determination of the will. The wind/"Spirit" blows/moves where it/He wants (according to His will) when it comes to men being "born again". Men "do not know" where it comes from or where it is going, i.e., men cannot predict this movement of the Spirit, and they cannot manipulate this movement of the Spirit.

This is a theme that was 1st mentioned in John 1, where men are said to be "born", not by bloods, nor the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but (the will) of God.

peace to youraying: