Lordship Salvation? - Part Two

[webdog]

So does someone that suffers loss and doesn't receive their crown do they get to rule and reign with Christ during His coming kingdom?

Ruling and reigning? I doubt it. Banishment from? No.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Wrong. Christ died once for ALL SIN!! You need a serious lesson in hermeneutics! As pastorsbc posted in the other thread...

So, are we talking about his death or his shed blood?

I was under the impression that we were talking about his shed blood and the forgiveness of sin.

 

[J. Jump]

Ruling and reigning? I doubt it. Banishment from? No.

Well then I apologize for misrepresenting your view point.

Now since you don't think these folks will rule and reign with Christ please tell me what Scripture says they will be doing.

 

[Hope of Glory]

It doesn't matter what you hate to think. Would your theology be consistent or not? If someone does curse right before they're hit by that mac truck, then how could that be forgiven since they didn't have time to confess it?

The question is, do you think the punishment for unconfessed sin is 1,000 years in hell or some other bad place? A yes or no answer is all you need to give.

There's no inconsistency in saying, "I don't know the standards that Jesus uses to judge."

Does one unconfessed sin cause you to be cast into hell?

I think that 1 John shows that it's a lifestyle of sin that causes it, and not a single event.

But, what does he judge to be a "lifestyle" of sin? Committing adultery once and saying "whew! I got away with it!" Or committing adultery repeatedly, but honestly repenting and confessing each time?

 

[Hope of Glory]

Sigh....indulge me. Please refer me to some specific verses where Paul taught this. You can't support your doctrine by saying "just read the Bible".

Amy,

I posted 8 pages on it. Much of it coming from Paul's epistles.

Why do you need more?

 

[npetreley]

There's no inconsistency in saying, "I don't know the standards that Jesus uses to judge."

Does one unconfessed sin cause you to be cast into hell?

I think that 1 John shows that it's a lifestyle of sin that causes it, and not a single event.

But, what does he judge to be a "lifestyle" of sin? Committing adultery once and saying "whew! I got away with it!" Or committing adultery repeatedly, but honestly repenting and confessing each time?

Okay, so where do you cross the line? How much sin do you have to commit before you end up in hell for 1,000 years? Does your suffering in hell scale with the amount of sin? I mean, if you commit adultery once and have to share hell with a perpetual adulterer, do you get tortured different amounts?

 

[J. Jump]

Okay, so where do you cross the line? How much sin do you have to commit before you end up in hell for 1,000 years?

This is ultimately the question that everyone wants answered. How close to the line can I get before I get burned.

That's not a Biblical approach. The approach is not how close can I get and be okay. The Biblical approach is how far away from the line can I get and how close to the image of Christ can I get before I cross the finish line.

 

[J. Jump]

The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. 48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

 

[npetreley]

This is ultimately the question that everyone wants answered. How close to the line can I get before I get burned.

No, that might be a question I'd ask if I were unsaved and actually believed your nonsense. I'm just asking you to put some specifics behind your claims. Obviously you can't.

 

[J. Jump]

No, that might be a question I'd ask if I were unsaved and actually believed your nonsense.

The unsaved aren't even in a position to ask that question, because this has nothing to do with the unsaved, meaning those that have never believed in the Substitute. So this statement is pointless.

The ONLY thing that matters for them is what did you believe concerning the death and shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, Who died and shed His blood on your behalf a sinner. And that judgment is determined before they ever die.

The judgment of works concerning the kingdom is ONLY for saved folks.

I'm just asking you to put some specifics behind your claims.

But again your direction is headed the wrong way. There are no specifics about how close you can get to the line before you burn. The specifics are in how to get as far away from the line as possible and as close to the image of Christ as possible.

Again your question is of no matter. It's pointless.

 

[npetreley]

The unsaved aren't even in a position to ask that question, because this has nothing to do with the unsaved, meaning those that have never believed in the Substitute. So this statement is pointless.

I'm saying that the question would be typical of an unbeliever. Whether you believe this weird doctrine has anything to do with unbelievers is irrelevant to that statement. Step out of your little kingdom salvation world when you read the input of other people. Not everyone thinks in terms of your doctrines.

 

[J. Jump]

I'm saying that the question would be typical of an unbeliever.

So? Again the statement is pointless. Who cares what forever and ever damned people would ask. This doctrine doesn't deal with them, so to bring them into the coversation as a point is moot.

 

[Amy.G]

You know, I can go take a shower right now, then go out and roll around in the mud, and I'm not still clean.

BTW, are you saying that if you sin that you can become unsaved?

Of course not. I never remotely even vaguely or otherwise implied that.

What you are saying is that a person who dies with unconfessed sin, still has that sin on their account and they will be punished for it. But, the Bible says that the wages of sin is death. So even if we die with only one unforgiven sin the wages of that one sin is death or eternal separation from God.
That is totally unbiblical and diminishes the power of Christ to remove all sin from the believer.

 

[Hope of Glory]

I'm just asking you to put some specifics behind your claims. Obviously you can't.

Instead of asking for my specifics, how about the Bible's specifics?

Matthew 5:22: But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

Why would you care just how close you can get and get away with it? Aren't the warnings given enough to know that you shouldn't be doing those things?

Matthew 25:33-46: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into aionian fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment [aionian chastisement, not punitive punishment]: but the righteous into life eternal.

This is talking about inheritance, and it's based on works. We don't earn whether or not we're saved, and inheritance is a family matter.

Colossians 3:24 tells us that the inheritance is a reward; It's compensation. "Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ."

Reward is compensation or repayment. [Luke 14:12: “Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbours; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompence be made thee.”; Romans 11:9: “And David saith, Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumblingblock, and a recompence unto them:”] Who is this epistle written to? [Colossians 1:2: To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ...] It’s also interesting to note that in Colossians 3:24, the verbs are 2nd person plural; ya’ll, if you will. “Ya’ll will receive the reward” because “ya’ll are serving the Lord”.
“Ya’ll will receive” is in the middle voice. It means that the person to whom it is referring causes the action to happen to himself. A good way to look at it is to add the phrase “for myself” to it. “Ya’ll will receive this reward because ya’ll serve the Lord.”

But, look what Colossians 3:25 says: "But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons." It’s 3rd person singular, and also middle voice. He shall receive for himself for what he has done.

“Because you serve”; “the wrong he hath done”. Both verses are talking about works, and payment for them. Is this talking about being saved?

It is the promised Kingdom given to those who love him in James 2:5. It is the hope of his calling, and what the riches of the glory of his inheritance in the saints; this happens when he returns to Earth as the King of kings and Lord of Lords. (Ephesians 1:18)

 

[Hope of Glory]

Of course not. I never remotely even vaguely or otherwise implied that.

What you are saying is that a person who dies with unconfessed sin, still has that sin on their account and they will be punished for it. But, the Bible says that the wages of sin is death. So even if we die with only one unforgiven sin the wages of that one sin is death or eternal separation from God.
That is totally unbiblical and diminishes the power of Christ to remove all sin from the believer.

The wages of sin is thanatos [death]. What is thanatos? Back it up with Scripture.

 

[Amy.G]

The wages of sin is thanatos [death]. What is thanatos? Back it up with Scripture.

Romans 6
22But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.
23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

This is obviously speaking of eternal death. Not physical death.

 

[J. Jump]

outcome, eternal life.

Outcome of what Amy? What does that verse say eternal life is the "outcome" of?

 

[Amy.G]

[/B]
Outcome of what Amy? What does that verse say eternal life is the "outcome" of?

Eternal life is the outcome of being freed from sin.
Romans
22But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life.
23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[J. Jump]

Eternal life is the outcome of being freed from sin.

There is an "and" in there. You also have to include enslaved to God. That would be works.

Also why do you think Paul would be telling already saved individuals that they have an outcoming coming to them if they are already saved?

Notice he uses "your" speaking to his audience, which is saved individuals.

 

[npetreley]

There is an "and" in there. You also have to include enslaved to God. That would be works.

Then you have to change the next verse to read this way:

23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord, and you get to keep that free gift only as long as you make sufficient payments for it.

Or, as someone once put it (I don't recall who), "Here's a free Mercedes Benz. All you have to do to keep it is send me $1,000 per month."

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