Lordship salvation vs Easy believism

[Revmitchell]

Luke 6:46 And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?[/COLOR]

If at any time you ever disobey Jesus, then he is not your Lord according to this verse.

Does Jesus mean do not the things the He says sometimes or never?

 

[Winman]

Jesus wants us to be obedient 100% if the time.

That is not the issue. The issue is,

ARE YOU OBEDIENT 100% OF THE TIME?

If not, then Jesus is not Lord of your life. Well, maybe at times he is, and at other times he is not.

Is this what you depend on to get you heaven?

 

[Revmitchell]

I thought I did answer you. I said these verses do seem to teach a person must be 100% obedient.

I had to say "seem" because these verses are controversial. I do not read Greek, but many who do say these verses do not actually say a person must be 100% obedient 100% of the time, but rather speak of living in a continued state of sin.

What a shame. You cant read greek so you cannot know what any part of the new testament means. If you cannot understand that verse on your own then you should leave all of the Bible to others.

(I don't really believe that about you but that is where your logic goes.)

 

[Winman]

What a shame. You cant read greek so you cannot know what any part of the new testament means. If you cannot understand that verse on your own then you should leave all of the Bible to others.

(I don't really believe that about you but that is where your logic goes.)

I read these verses many years ago when I was young and found them very troubling. When I saw that 1 John 3:9 said that a person born of God cannot sin, I wondered if I were saved or not. In fact, I wondered if anybody were saved. I knew I sinned at times, and I knew Christians who sinned at times.

So, I found these verses very troubling. I did some study and found that most scholars and preachers said this meant living in continued sin. I felt much better after that.

But it is not me that is teaching that a person must be 100% obedient to be saved. I believe a person must simply trust Jesus Christ to forgive all their sins. Period.

It is you that believes that to be truly saved a person must commit to stop sinning. Good luck on that.

 

[Revmitchell]

It is you that believes that to be truly saved a person must commit to stop sinning. Good luck on that.

I do not believe that you have to be perfect for Christ to be Lord. Only you do. Since you have now decided to accuse me falsely it is apparent that you are not at a level to have a discussion on this. You cannot support your position so you become a false witness. Shame on you

 

[jbh28]

I read these verses many years ago when I was young and found them very troubling. When I saw that 1 John 3:9 said that a person born of God cannot sin, I wondered if I were saved or not. In fact, I wondered if anybody were saved. I knew I sinned at times, and I knew Christians who sinned at times.

So, I found these verses very troubling. I did some study and found that most scholars and preachers said this meant living in continued sin. I felt much better after that.

But it is not me that is teaching that a person must be 100% obedient to be saved. I believe a person must simply trust Jesus Christ to forgive all their sins. Period.

It is you that believes that to be truly saved a person must commit to stop sinning. Good luck on that.

I agree with you on the interpretation of I John. If you would read I John, I think you would understand my position much better. Especially chapter 3 verses 9-10

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."


Whosoever is born of God - born again Christians, not just a new nature of a Christian. This will become more evident later.

doth not commit sin - commit being understood as a continuous action, not a one time event. Obviously, a Christian will commit sin, but it should not be a habitual action.

for his seed remaineth in him. - The spirit is in us. We are now new creatures. We have been re-born. We have been regenerated. This is why we cannot commit sin(in the habitual sense) because we have a new nature and spirit to convict us of our sins.

and he cannot sin - In the same sense of "commit sin."

because he is born of God. - Christians are "born again." as Jesus speaks about in John 3. The one "born of God" is the Christian.

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: The comparison is between the "children of God, and the "children of the devil." The one that is committing sin(habitually) is evidence that he is a "child of the devil".

whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. - again, this is a comparison between the children of God and the children of the devil.

 

[Jedi Knight]

You're able to comply with this summation given by Christ?:

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. Mt 5:48

That is the uncompromising demand of the law. As far as I'm concerned, by that standard, I'm can't even get up out of this chair and walk out of the room without sinning.

With Paul I concur:

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 but I see a different law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity under the law of sin which is in my members.
24 Wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me out of the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then I of myself with the mind, indeed, serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. Ro 7

Is Jesus teaching us principals to live by or not? Try to tackle what I showed you already "blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the earth". Look up psalm 37 and see for yourself if it means anything other than it's just talking just to talk. Also if you want to discuss this "sermon on the mount".....start a new thread and lets discuss it further.

 

[moral necessity]

There is the problem right there. Look up the word repent in your concordance. There is only one time in the whole Bible where a person is told to repent of their sins, and it is said to a man who was already saved, that is Simon in Acts 8. He was a sorcerer who had believed on Jesus. When he saw the Holy Spirit was given by the laying on of hands, he offered money to Peter and the other apostles for this power, to which Peter responded:

Acts 8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.
24 Then answered Simon, and said, Pray ye to the Lord for me, that none of these things which ye have spoken come upon me.

Verse 22 is the only time in all of scripture where a person is told to repent of sin. Repent means a change of mind, a change of view. When certain people told Jesus about some whom Pilate had killed, and some who were killed when a tower fell on them, Jesus told them they must repent.

Luke 13:1 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Many people believe when something bad happens to a person, that this is proof that they were very wicked sinners and that God was punishing them. But Jesus tells them they must repent or turn from this false belief, and realize that they are wicked sinners as well. Just because your life is good, and nothing bad has happened to you does not prove you are right with God.

So, repent means to change your mind, often from something false you believe to the truth. And this is what the repentance in salvation is, to turn from the false belief that you can please God with your own righteousness and earn your way into heaven, to believe that you are a lost helpless sinner and that only Jesus can save you.

This is a false teaching of what repentance means, this idea was primarily introduced into the church by the RCC.

Excellent points about repentance! I remember coming to this conclusion as well, when the clouds were parting, and the gospel was becoming more visible. If you're into books, pick up a copy of The Justified Believer. In it is a work by Joseph Hart from 1743, entitled, A Discourse upon Justification. In one part, he expounds upon the term repentance, explaining it to mean exactly what you just said, a turning away from all other ways of salvation to the one that is found in Christ. I think this is a key truth that needs to be reclaimed in the church, as it is has been heavily attacked by our Adversary for many hundreds of years. A link to the book is below.

http://www.sprinklepublications.net/the-justified-believer.html

Blessings!

 

[Winman]

I agree with you on the interpretation of I John. If you would read I John, I think you would understand my position much better. Especially chapter 3 verses 9-10

"Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."


Whosoever is born of God - born again Christians, not just a new nature of a Christian. This will become more evident later.

doth not commit sin - commit being understood as a continuous action, not a one time event. Obviously, a Christian will commit sin, but it should not be a habitual action.

for his seed remaineth in him. - The spirit is in us. We are now new creatures. We have been re-born. We have been regenerated. This is why we cannot commit sin(in the habitual sense) because we have a new nature and spirit to convict us of our sins.

and he cannot sin - In the same sense of "commit sin."

because he is born of God. - Christians are "born again." as Jesus speaks about in John 3. The one "born of God" is the Christian.

In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: The comparison is between the "children of God, and the "children of the devil." The one that is committing sin(habitually) is evidence that he is a "child of the devil".

whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. - again, this is a comparison between the children of God and the children of the devil.

I agree with you here, someone who has truly trusted Jesus has received the Holy Spirit and cannot live in continuous sin, although we all sin at times.

And that is the very point, this verse does not say we "will not sin" it says we "cannot sin".

So why would a person have to make some sort of commitment to make Jesus Lord and quit sinning? It is unnecessary, because if you truly trust Christ and receive his Spirit, you are going to obey God because of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Does that make sense?

When we get saved, it is not so much us turning from sin as it is the new nature given us by the Spirit that will give us the desire to obey and please God.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Being saved is not a work that we perform, it is not us making a commitment to turn over a new leaf. It is receiving Jesus as our personal Saviour, and receiving the Holy Spirit. We are a new creature, created by God himself to perform good works. If we do any good, it was wrought by God himself working in us.

I will say this though, we don't just sit back and expect God to take over, we do need to study and learn his Word and submit to it, and when we do so we can never sin. You cannot sin when you are being led by the Spirit of God, it is impossible.

But we still have the old sinful flesh, and we can follow and obey that if we so choose. If we do so we will sin. We are still saved, but we are grieving the Holy Spirit within us. This is why no true Christian can continue in sin, they will be miserable.

 

[HankD]

1 John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.​

"comitteth sin" - "doing the sin", "practicing the sin".​

doing, practicing - this is a present participle and can indicate a state of being "sinneth from the beginning".​

The use of the definite article (which does not show up in the English) "The" sin along with the present participle indicates sin as a way of life.​

Anyone who sins in this manner is not saved​

It does not say "He who sins is of the devil", (as present active) this is called "present active" or punctiliar sins, one at a time and not continuously.​

These "present active" sins are covered in 1 John 1:9​

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins (plural), he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.​

"If we confess our sins" as oppossed to "He that committeth sin"​

Those who are "practicing" sin are in the state of sin, they can't identify their sins (plural) because their whole life is a sin every moment and they belong to their father the devil. If they die in that condition as slaves to sin then they will die in their sin.​

The children of God cannot sin in this manner because we are born of God and belong to our Father in heaven and the Spirit (the seed of the rebirth) remains within us us and convicts us to acknowledge our individual sins.​

There is a possible consequence for obstinant unrepentant sinning on the part of a child of God - physical death - the sin unto death.​

Paul also speaks of this:​

1 Corinthians 1
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.
30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.
32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world.​

Verses 31 shows that even this condition can be remitted by the Lord, our heavenly "Lawyer":​

As well as:

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate (lawyer) with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:​

However, we are admonished by our loving Father in heaven in the first part of this verse:​

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not...

See, it is really our Father in heaven who asks us not to sin but nevertheless has provided us a means to maintain our fellowship of love with Him and we want to do so because we love Him who first loved us.​

As Winman has witnessed, we hate our sin.​

Look to that atoning fountain of blood drawn from His veins and you won't have to worry about whether He is Lord of your life or not.​

HE IS.​

HankD​

 

[Winman]

Excellent post Hank :thumbs:

 

[jbh28]

I agree with you here, someone who has truly trusted Jesus has received the Holy Spirit and cannot live in continuous sin, although we all sin at times.

And that is the very point, this verse does not say we "will not sin" it says we "cannot sin".

So why would a person have to make some sort of commitment to make Jesus Lord and quit sinning? It is unnecessary, because if you truly trust Christ and receive his Spirit, you are going to obey God because of the indwelling Holy Spirit.

Does that make sense?

Perfect sense! The statement "cannot live in continuous sin" is because of the "indwelling Holy Spirit." It's about the regenerating work of the Spirit.

When we get saved, it is not so much us turning from sin as it is the new nature given us by the Spirit that will give us the desire to obey and please God.

To me, turning from sin is a change of mind about our sins. You don't have to stop physically sinning in order to be saved. If so, how long do you have to not sin before you can be saved. Rather, its a change of mind(which is what repentance means) which will result in a changing of action. I corrected what I said earlier to changing because it doesn't happen at ones. We don't become perfect when we are saved. We are being sanctified and that is a timely process. We don't become perfect till glorification, and that hasn't happened yet.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Being saved is not a work that we perform, it is not us making a commitment to turn over a new leaf. It is receiving Jesus as our personal Saviour, and receiving the Holy Spirit. We are a new creature, created by God himself to perform good works. If we do any good, it was wrought by God himself working in us.

Highlighting your excellent points!

I will say this though, we don't just sit back and expect God to take over, we do need to study and learn his Word and submit to it, and when we do so we can never sin. You cannot sin when you are being led by the Spirit of God, it is impossible.

But we still have the old sinful flesh, and we can follow and obey that if we so choose. If we do so we will sin. We are still saved, but we are grieving the Holy Spirit within us. This is why no true Christian can continue in sin, they will be miserable.

I'm pretty much in agreement with you here Winman. The big things I pointed out was that the reason there is a change is because of the Spirit that dwells in us. That's the evidence of the new birth. Claiming you are saved, but not having any evidence(fruit) is a big sign that there isn't a true salvation there.


I'm actually discussing this very subject on another board and thought I would ask this here.

1. Do LS advocates believe that works saved anybody? In other words, are there any works that must be done PRIOR to being saved?

2. Do LS advocates believe that works keep anybody's salvation. In other words, are there any works that must be done after salvation to keep someone saved.

3. Do LS advocates believe that repentance means that you must make a physical change before you can be saved. In other words(I sound robotic!) does a person have to stop sinning in order to be saved?

Briefly for me, the first two are most definitely no! As for number 3, the answer as worded is no for me too. Repentance is a change of mind. True repentance is a change of mind that results in an action. In other words, we should see some changes developing in the life of a Christian.

Being a Christian isn't a life insurance policy. If a person has no desire for God at all, this to me is a big sign that no regeneration has happened. We don't change after we are saved because of us, but because of the regenerating work of God in us.



"A changed life and submission to Christ's lordship are the result of salvation, not a requirement for salvation." - http://www.gotquestions.org/lordship-salvation.html

Do those, like MacArthur, that are for LS reject a statement such as this([points 1-3), or would they agree with it? And what about everybody else?

 

[webdog]

Perfect sense! The statement "cannot live in continuous sin" is because of the "indwelling Holy Spirit." It's about the regenerating work of the Spirit.
To me, turning from sin is a change of mind about our sins. You don't have to stop physically sinning in order to be saved. If so, how long do you have to not sin before you can be saved. Rather, its a change of mind(which is what repentance means) which will result in a changing of action. I corrected what I said earlier to changing because it doesn't happen at ones. We don't become perfect when we are saved. We are being sanctified and that is a timely process. We don't become perfect till glorification, and that hasn't happened yet.
Highlighting your excellent points!
I'm pretty much in agreement with you here Winman. The big things I pointed out was that the reason there is a change is because of the Spirit that dwells in us. That's the evidence of the new birth. Claiming you are saved, but not having any evidence(fruit) is a big sign that there isn't a true salvation there.


I'm actually discussing this very subject on another board and thought I would ask this here.

1. Do LS advocates believe that works saved anybody? In other words, are there any works that must be done PRIOR to being saved?

2. Do LS advocates believe that works keep anybody's salvation. In other words, are there any works that must be done after salvation to keep someone saved.

3. Do LS advocates believe that repentance means that you must make a physical change before you can be saved. In other words(I sound robotic!) does a person have to stop sinning in order to be saved?

Briefly for me, the first two are most definitely no! As for number 3, the answer as worded is no for me too. Repentance is a change of mind. True repentance is a change of mind that results in an action. In other words, we should see some changes developing in the life of a Christian.

Being a Christian isn't a life insurance policy. If a person has no desire for God at all, this to me is a big sign that no regeneration has happened. We don't change after we are saved because of us, but because of the regenerating work of God in us.



"A changed life and submission to Christ's lordship are the result of salvation, not a requirement for salvation." - http://www.gotquestions.org/lordship-salvation.html

Do those, like MacArthur, that are for LS reject a statement such as this([points 1-3), or would they agree with it? And what about everybody else?

The following quote is from "Warning: The Day of The Lord is Near" By Heath Goodman's Alarm Ministries. He is a LS'er in the mold of MacArthru

"You have offended God's holiness and broken His laws! You know what is wrong by natural instinct, "the law having been written in your heart" yet you chose to rebel against the conscience God gave you. You are guilty, guilty, guilty! You are sinful before Him and deserving of eternal damnation. You must be punished...

But Good News, my friend! There's hope! Jesus took the punishment! The gospel is simply this-
Jesus, the Lamb of God took upon Himself your debt of sin. He paid for it in full. You can be forgiven and have fellowship with the Holy God that you once offended with your sin.
However, to receive God's forgiveness, eternal salvation and blessings, you are required to believe the gospel and confess your sins in sorrow and regret. Do not just confess them generally. Be specific in confessing what you have done to offend His holiness.
Show Him that you are sincerely sorry for your sins by MAKING A COMMITMENT NEVER TO PRACTICE THOSE SINS AGAIN! This is real repentance. "Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand. (Matthew 4:17,). Put your faith in His grace to keep you from falling. He will keep you!


It is not enough to just "say a little prayer'. Many preachers will stand in judgment for leading so many in a false conversion. How many souls are in hell right now who thought they were alright because the preacher didn't want to scare them away with a challenge and a call to a total commitment to Christ? I will not tell you a cheap and easy gospel message. Jesus requires you to give your ALL!
"So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not ALL that he hath, he cannot be my disciple." (Luke 14:33). "And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with ALL thy heart, and with ALL thy soul, and with ALL thy strength, and with ALL thy mind; and thy neighbor as thyself." (Luke 10:27).


Many of you have hardened your heart to God and the gospel. You have heard the preaching of Jesus many times before. But you've never made a total commitment to follow Jesus. You do not care that He died for you. You are in bitterness of soul and "nigh unto cursing." I warn you! Do not harden your heart to God's love and mercy! There is no other choice left to you but His wrath and indignation! I plead with you to fall on the Rock and be broken before the rock falls on you and you are crushed to powder! (see Matthew 21:44). This is a very serious decision you must make. Your eternal destiny depends upon it!
On Judgment day you will be without excuse. You have been warned of the Day of the Lord and told the Good News to avoid God's wrath. Jesus loves you... enough to warn you and give you a way out. Will you choose His loving way or go your own way to destruction? The ball is in your court now. What will you do?"

 

[Luke2427]

So do you believe in Lordship salvation or Easy believisum or both? Please explain why or why not for your choice.

There is no salvation apart from Lordship- none. The primary message of the Word of God is not that Jesus is Love- it is that Jesus is Lord.

Now, certainly God is love and Jesus loves with an everlasting love. But the point of the existence of time, space and matter is- God created the universe by Christ and for Christ so that he might reign over it all as Lord.

This is why Jesus came preaching the KINGdom of God- as did his predecessor.

This is why the KINGdom consumed the preaching of Christ- 125 references to it in the Gospels alone. It is the subject matter of nearly ALL the parables.

This is why that famous salvation verse we use say, "That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the LORD Jesus Christ... thou shalt be saved."

You must confess him as LORD to be saved.

This is why "LORD" is the most common title attributed to God and Christ.

This does not mean one must be perfect- but it does mean that he must be surrendered.

Japan has not been perfect towards the US since WWII, but there is no doubt that they have surrendered to the superior might of the US. It is evident that they fear the US and recognize the right of the US to enforce certain restrictions on them.

I break some laws in the US and am not a perfect citizen (I speed at times for example) but I am in submission to the US constitution. I am not a perfect citizen in the Kingdom- but Christ is my KING, my Lord, my master.

And he is the same to all people who have any real hope of heaven.

 

[Winman]

jbh28

I'm pretty much in agreement with you here Winman. The big things I pointed out was that the reason there is a change is because of the Spirit that dwells in us. That's the evidence of the new birth. Claiming you are saved, but not having any evidence(fruit) is a big sign that there isn't a true salvation there.

Wow, I think that's twice we've agreed with each other. :thumbsup:

 

[Tom Butler]

Paul, writing his second letter to the congregation at Thessalonica, called them brothers. And he called to mind some recognizable evidence that they were true believers:

1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father.

Hmmmm, there's faith, hope and love. And Paul saw tangible demonstrations in their work, their labor, and their patience.

I remember an evangelist many years ago, Lee Castro, asked his audience, "if you were accused of being a Christian, would there be enough evidence to convict you?"

 

[Tater77]

Will someone define works and rectify lordship salvation with Romans 4:4-6?

 

[jbh28]

Will someone define works and rectify lordship salvation with Romans 4:4-6?

Romans 4 and James 2 seem to contradict on the surface. Paul in Romans 4 stresses that you are saved by faith and not of works. He gives the example of Abraham. Abraham wasn't saved by works, but by faith. Verse 5 says that works play no part in getting saved, but by faith alone. Then, we read in James 2 "as not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;" It seems on the surface as a direct contradiction with Paul. James and Paul are referencing Abraham. Paul says that Abraham was justified by faith. James says justified by works. The key to the passage is the next verse, "faith was active along with his works."

Works are evidence of faith. Have you ever heard somebody say they believe you and you say "well act like it then." We recognize that believing will result in an action. No one gets saved by works(Paul's point) and works will come out of faith(James' point). In other words, one is speaking before salvation, the other after salvation.

MacAuthor says in his commentary(p124) on James, "As already noted, it is not that some amount of good works added to true faith can save a person, but rather that faith that is genuine and saving will inevitably produce good works.
Also, on page 122

It cannot be stressed too often that no one can be saved by works. Salvation is entirely "by grace . . . through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast" (Eph 2:8-9). If works could have any part in salvation, it would no longer be by God's grace. But neither can it be stressed too often that, as James declares in the present passage, "faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself" (James 2:17). Genuine, transforming faith not only should, but will, produce genuine good works, notably repentance and obedient submission to Christ's lordship. This is the expression of the new nature, created in the new birth (2 Cor. 5:17). It will not be perfect obedience and repentance, but good works will be present.​

- bold emphasis mine

 

[Tater77]

Romans 4 and James 2 seem to contradict on the surface. Paul in Romans 4 stresses that you are saved by faith and not of works. He gives the example of Abraham. Abraham wasn't saved by works, but by faith. Verse 5 says that works play no part in getting saved, but by faith alone. Then, we read in James 2 "as not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up his son Isaac on the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;" It seems on the surface as a direct contradiction with Paul. James and Paul are referencing Abraham. Paul says that Abraham was justified by faith. James says justified by works. The key to the passage is the next verse, "faith was active along with his works."

Works are evidence of faith. Have you ever heard somebody say they believe you and you say "well act like it then." We recognize that believing will result in an action. No one gets saved by works(Paul's point) and works will come out of faith(James' point). In other words, one is speaking before salvation, the other after salvation.

MacAuthor says in his commentary(p124) on James, "As already noted, it is not that some amount of good works added to true faith can save a person, but rather that faith that is genuine and saving will inevitably produce good works.
Also, on page 122

It cannot be stressed too often that no one can be saved by works. Salvation is entirely "by grace . . . through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast" (Eph 2:8-9). If works could have any part in salvation, it would no longer be by God's grace. But neither can it be stressed too often that, as James declares in the present passage, "faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself" (James 2:17). Genuine, transforming faith not only should, but will, produce genuine good works, notably repentance and obedient submission to Christ's lordship. This is the expression of the new nature, created in the new birth (2 Cor. 5:17). It will not be perfect obedience and repentance, but good works will be present.​

- bold emphasis mine

I know that. But the problem is, the Lordshippers take works to a new level as each individual has a different definition of works.

Simply having Saving Faith and living a Godly life as best you can never seems to be enough.

 

[gb93433]

I know that. But the problem is, the Lordshippers take works to a new level as each individual has a different definition of works.

Simply having Saving Faith and living a Godly life as best you can never seems to be enough.

They do go beyond what scripture teaches. Theer are thosde who teach things that are borderline heresy and scriptural. There are others who will say they do not know. When I was in seminary one of the professors I had told us that the congregation wants to know. Probably one of the best professors in that convention would often say he did not know when there were times I asked a question. I had more respect and learned more from him than any others.

The congregation may want answers just like all of us but they should not be getting lies from their teachers.

The Lordshipers fail to deal with the reality of church history. They forget about those who denied Jesus and then repented. One of those was Peter. There were many others during times of persecution.