I agree. Faith and repentance are not separate.
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Lordship Salvation vs Free Grace
- Thread starter Salty
- Start date
freeatlast
New Member
I read my statement again and I do not see what you are suggesting. However I will say that works do not save. At the same time that does not mean that we are to do nothing. If that was the case everyone would be saved just because they are.
Our actions do not save us, but an action to turn to God (repentance towards God and faith towards Jesus Christ) opens the door for Him to do the saving. We have to open the door and He will come.
Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
One more thing Repentance and faith are not the same thing. Many people turn to God and do not put faith towards the Son. And many people trust Christ and do not repent towards God. They all remain lost. It takes both repentance and faith for salvation to happen. They cannot be separated for salvation.
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Tom Butler
New Member
Tom, you have emphasised the need for defining terms. I believe in God's free and sovereign grace (the "Doctrines of Grace"), but I certainly don't believe that you can "take Jesus as your Saviour" without having Him as your Lord. Yet you say that such a belief "sounds like the free-grace position."
Does "free grace" then mean something different to the doctrines of grace? Confusing!
David, I don't think they are the same. I may have confused more than clarified, so maybe the free-gracers and the LSers ought to define their own positions.
Again, my understanding that free-gracers say that repentance from sin is not necessary for salvation. And, that some free-gracers see repentance as a work.
I have also heard the free-grace view called "easy believism."
It would help if they would speak for themselves.
It appears to me that James Kennedy's Evangelism Explosion method would be considered free grace. I recently checked the EE training methods books and not once does it say anything about: convictions of sins, repentance, accepting Christ as Savior, or turning to the Lord. It only talks about receiving the free gift of salvation.
Does this mean that Presbyterians are only free grace?
What about Baptists Calvinists?
glfredrick
New Member
I doubt that one can so broadly wrap up any denomination or theological persuasion's take on this. it is more likely to be an individual or local church-level issue than something as large as entire denominations or theological groupings.
You are correct about EE, however. The issue of neglecting our sin and need for repentance is at the heart of many an evangelistic presentation, from all sorts of different groups.
Free Grace believes repentance and accepting Christ as two sides of the same coin. Now if you mean repentance from particular sins and a promise to never commit those sins again prior to faith in Christ (MacArthur), we are not on the same page in regards to repentance.
glfredrick
New Member
Is that not the true meaning of repentance? To "turn and go the other direction?" Repentance is not merely saying "Oh God, I'm sorry," then sinning again...
What specific sins did you have to confess in order to receive salvation? This is the repentance I'm talking about, not the realization we are sinners in need of salvation and turning to Christ to save us (turn and go in the other direction)
What you've seen will differ from my experience. Around here the FG Churches get you "Saved", hand you a Bible (sometimes) then place you in the pew with no attention after that.
Here in east Tennessee, Churches are filled with baby Christians because no one has taken away the bottle and gave them the meat of the Word.
David Lamb
Well-Known Member
I think I have found the reason for the confusion. Tom Butler (Post 23 of this thread) says that "free grace" is not the same as "doctrines of grace". He wrote also wrote:
I have also heard the free-grace view called "easy believism."
If this thread had been called "Lordship Salvation vs Easy Believism", I would have had a much better idea of what was meant. Here in the UK, the term "free grace" is almost synonymous with "The Doctrines of Grace" or "Reformed Theology". I have never come across it used to mean "easy-believism."
Some "Doctrines of Grace" churches here actually have the words "free grace" in their church name, but they certainly don't hold to easy believism. For example:
Free Grace Baptist Church, Belvedere (on the outskirts of London). The "What We Belive" section of their web site begins:
We are a reformed and evangelical baptist church and believe the Bible to be the final revelation of God to man. our church is based upon the 1689 Second London Baptist confession of faith and the ‘Doctrines of Grace’, sometimes called the five points of Calvinism.
Ulverton Free Grace Baptist Church, Cumbria, similarly says:
The Holy Scriptures contained in the 66 books of the Old and New Testaments are the only rule or standard that God has given the churches to govern all matters of faith and practise. As its subordinate standard, the Church recognises the 1689 Baptist Confession.
As I did the search for the info above, I saw that it is not just here in ther UK that "Free Grace" is used to mean reformed theology. We are a reformed and evangelical baptist church and believe the Bible to be the final revelation of God to man. our church is based upon the 1689 Second London Baptist confession of faith and the ‘Doctrines of Grace’, sometimes called the five points of Calvinism.
Ulverton Free Grace Baptist Church, Cumbria, similarly says:
The Holy Scriptures contained in the 66 books of the Old and New Testaments are the only rule or standard that God has given the churches to govern all matters of faith and practise. As its subordinate standard, the Church recognises the 1689 Baptist Confession.
In Canada, there is Free Grace Baptist Church, Chilliwack.
In Zambia, Free Grace Baptist Church, Boksburg state that they are linked to "Sola 5," an association of evangelical churches in southern Africa holding to the "Five Great Alones" of the Reformation (Salvation is: 1. revealed in God's Word alone, 2. by Christ alone, 3. by grace alone, 4. through faith alone, and 5. for the glory of God alone.).
In the USA, there is (for example) Free Grace Baptist Church, San Antonio, Texas, whose summary of belief is stated thus:
While we believe wholeheartedly in the inerrant and infallible word of God as preserved in the 66 books of the Bible (39 books of the OT and the 27 books of the NT), we also share the belief of C.H. Spurgeon and countless others who expressed the conviction that the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith presents a reliable summary of what the Bible teaches.
Those are just samples of many I could give, and they are limited to names of churches - I haven't included any reference to people using the term "free grace" in writing or speech to refer to Reformed Theology.
I hope that explains why I said in Post 9 on this thread that I agreed with InTheLight about the importance of defining terms.
The Presbyterians have their Old School/NewSchool Conservative/Liberal etc. schisms as do the Baptists.
My response to what is called "easy believism" is - what is the alternative?
Difficult believism?
Believing on Jesus Christ is the easiest thing I know how to do. It is effortless.
Does any child of God find it difficult?
Sanctification is the difficult part (for me anyway).
I know what the underlying problem is, "easy believism" is a misnomer for "phony believism" - the fruit the tares among the wheat produce.
Luke 6
Acts 11
HankD
Difficult believism?
Believing on Jesus Christ is the easiest thing I know how to do. It is effortless.
Does any child of God find it difficult?
Sanctification is the difficult part (for me anyway).
I know what the underlying problem is, "easy believism" is a misnomer for "phony believism" - the fruit the tares among the wheat produce.
Luke 6
43 For a good tree bringeth not forth corrupt fruit; neither doth a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.
44 For every tree is known by his own fruit. For of thorns men do not gather figs, nor of a bramble bush gather they grapes.
Acts 11
22 Then tidings of these things came unto the ears of the church which was in Jerusalem: and they sent forth Barnabas, that he should go as far as Antioch.
23 Who, when he came, and had seen the grace of God, was glad, and exhorted them all, that with purpose of heart they would cleave unto the Lord.
24 For he was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith: and much people was added unto the Lord.
23 Who, when he came, and had seen the grace of God, was glad, and exhorted them all, that with purpose of heart they would cleave unto the Lord.
24 For he was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith: and much people was added unto the Lord.
HankD
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WestminsterMan
New Member
Being that repentance is the assent of the will (the acquiescence thereof), then it is an act of conscience or, more generally, a work (not a work as in Levitical Law).
Peace
WM
WestminsterMan
New Member
Agreed. However, works will be the basis of our judgement.
Romans 2:5-11 (King James Version)
5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6Who will render to every man according to his deeds [works]:
7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11For there is no respect of persons with God.
Peace.
WM
This was my experience when I was saved in my previous Calvinist / Lordship Salvation church. They did the same thing, but the thinking was "you are the elect, you'll figure it out".
freeatlast
New Member
yes you are correct in that our works (deeds) will be what we are judged by, the saved and the lost alike.
Since faith coincides with repentance as they go hand in hand, and faith is never a work, neither is repentance.
freeatlast
New Member
I disagree. Repentance and faith are both works, but they just do not save.They open the door for salvation. By works I mean they are literal states of mind/heart that must precede salvation.
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The ones who gave us the doctrine of free grace were the Reformers (I know- it comes from the Bible but they systematized and named it) believed in Lordship salvation.
Now the TERM Lordship is relatively new, but the idea that salvation comes only to those that bow to the Lordship of Christ is old as the New Testament and it is the OBVIOUS beliefs of those who gave us free grace.
WestminsterMan
New Member
I disagree completely. Faith and works are synonomous and thus, inextricablly linked.
"What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? If a brother or sister is ill-clad and in lack of daily food, and one of you says to them, `Go in peace, be warmed and filled,' without giving them the things needed for the body, what does it profit? So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. But some one will say, `You have faith and I have works.' Show me your faith apart from your works, and I by my works will show you my faith. You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe--and shudder. Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he offered his son Isaac upon the altar? You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by works, and the scripture was fulfilled which says, `Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness'; and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone" (Jas. 2:14-24).
We will be judged upon our deeds - things that we do, think, or say (or things that we fail to do, think, or say) - all of these are works according to scripture. Is not the thought of lust considered the sin of adultry? The answer must be a resounding YES! Unless of course, one believes that one has no control over one's mental processes and cannot assent to sin, which is patently rediculous. We are responsible for our actions [works/deeds/thoughts] in the sight of God.
Peace!
WM