Lordship Salvation vs. Free Grace

[evangelist6589]

Here is my review of the book Eternal Security by Stanley which I finished tonight.

This well-written book captures the reader’s interest and assures the reader Biblically of his security in the Lord. Those that deny eternal security will no doubt take issue with this book, and those of the hyper/extreme Calvinist persuasion will also take issue with this book. The gripes I have with this book and why I gave the book a 4 star instead of a 5 star rating has to do with the way Stanley has worded a few statements in various parts of the book, that isolated from the context may sound heretical. Statements such as:

“So there are Christians who show no evidence of their Christianity as well. But that does not change their eternal status, any more than a lost man can change his eternal destiny by acting saved.” (pg 67)

I am not sure what Stanley means by this comment, which on the surface isolated from the context is unbiblical according to the book of James. I did not find a good explanation in the book so I turned to some of his other books and in his book “Into His Presence” he makes a big case for living in holiness in the world and he even quotes author Jerry Bridges whom is big on the Holiness topic. Later in Eternal Security Stanley makes a case for his position on rewards and judgment based on 1 Cor 3, which may help explain the quote on pg 67 more clearly. Stanley teaches that those Christians whom live for themselves are indeed saved, but ones that will lose their rewards when they get to Heaven.

“Our works have nothing to do with where we spend eternity. But they have allot to do with what we can expect once we get there” (p. 119)

Respected pastor/Theologian Erwin Lutzer of Moody Church of Chicago holds a similar view and defends his case in his book “Your Eternal Reward.” On pg 69 of that book he writes “To possess eternal life you simply need faith in Christ; to truly inherit it, you need faith and obedience.” On the following page Lutzer goes on to say that Christians can be homosexuals, liars and such that will lose all their rewards in Heaven, if they do not get victory over such sins.

Based on these books it appears as if both Stanley & Lutzer do not hold to the Lordship Salvation view and a big reason why many in the Reformed camp will have an issue with Stanley’s book. Lutzer is more academic and those wanting a more in-depth read need to read his books “Your Eternal Reward” & “How you can be sure that you will spend eternity with God.” But for the average layman and small group study, Stanley’s book is sufficient and does a good job at defending the doctrine of eternal security. A well written read indeed!

Am I understanding correctly the views presented? Lordship teaches that those that do not submit in every area of their life and die as Homosexuals "christians" whom have not gotten victory will go to hell. However Lutzer & Stanley say otherwise.

 

[Iconoclast]

Respected pastor/Theologian Erwin Lutzer of Moody Church of Chicago holds a similar view and defends his case in his book “Your Eternal Reward.” On pg 69 of that book he writes “To possess eternal life you simply need faith in Christ; to truly inherit it, you need faith and obedience.” On the following page Lutzer goes on to say that Christians can be homosexuals, liars and such that will lose all their rewards in Heaven, if they do not get victory over such sins.

Not really.That only exists in His book

9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:

10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.

12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?

13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

This does not look like the wicked person is just going to lose a yo-yo,and a box of crayons in heaven...looks like he is not making the trip, unless he repents.:thumbs:

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any.

 

[convicted1]

Not really.That only exists in His book



This does not look like the wicked person is just going to lose a yo-yo,and a box of crayons in heaven...looks like he is not making the trip, unless he repents.:thumbs:

You, Brother, have hit the proverbial "nail on the head". :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[evangelist6589]

Not really.That only exists in His book



This does not look like the wicked person is just going to lose a yo-yo,and a box of crayons in heaven...looks like he is not making the trip, unless he repents.:thumbs:

Inherit and entering are two different things. Salvation is by faith, and salvation is a gift and not of ourselves (Eph 2:8-10). There are all sins that we will die not having fully submitted to His Lordship on. But then again perhaps there are those homosexuals whom do not mean one word of what they claim and have not repented of any sins, and they are not serious.

 

[12strings]

Inherit and entering are two different things

You, Lutzer, and stanley seem to be saying this...Is there scripture to back it up? I'm not denying that there seems to be differing rewards...but can a biblical case be made that inheriting eternal life, and entering heaven are 2 different things?

 

[OldRegular]

God will bring His "chosen ones" to salvation in Jesus Christ. That is certain!

I would add that given the frequency of the use of the name Lord Jesus in the book of Acts through Revelation [~150] there is obviously truth in the term "Lordship Salvation"! If Jesus Christ is not Lord can He be Savior?

 

[Iconoclast]

You, Brother, have hit the proverbial "nail on the head". :thumbsup::thumbsup:

Hello Willis,

I think we can all agree on this one:laugh::wavey: I do not think God has changed His mind on this issue since Sodom and Gommorah.{he never needs to change his mind as he is immutable}
As sinners sometimes we still do not grasp the sinfulness of sin as much as we need to.

 

[Iconoclast]

Inherit and entering are two different things. Salvation is by faith, and salvation is a gift and not of ourselves (Eph 2:8-10). There are all sins that we will die not having fully submitted to His Lordship on. But then again perhaps there are those homosexuals whom do not mean one word of what they claim and have not repented of any sins, and they are not serious.

Hello EV,

There are all sins that we will die not having fully submitted to His Lordship on.

I do not want to jump on your words, as I believe I understand your main thought. By way of clarification....

Salvation, and sanctification are supernatural. We repent and believe, we are told to mortify remaining sin. Yet it is God who works in us, enabling us to do what he has said to.
We are not sinless...correct. And yet 1 cor 6 leaves no place for a professed brother....to be under sin to such an extent that he can be called any of the names on the list that Paul gives to us....

The idea of us...." fully submitting" is not an option but is a reality in the life of true christians.

5 And he said, `Who art thou, Lord?' and the Lord said, `I am Jesus whom thou dost persecute; hard for thee at the pricks to kick;'

6 trembling also, and astonished, he said, `Lord, what dost thou wish me to do?' and the Lord [said] unto him, `Arise, and enter into the city, and it shall be told thee what it behoveth thee to do.'

There are some who profess faith that are not believers at all.

We are all to some extent disobedient to God's word, and subject to God's discipline.
but it is not up to us to:

make Jesus Lord...he already is. we are to obey.


If anyone clings to any one sin...they are not God's child. If you can say That brother John is a nice guy...but he steals whenever he goes to the grocery store....he is a thief and no christian.

 

[Yeshua1]

Inherit and entering are two different things. Salvation is by faith, and salvation is a gift and not of ourselves (Eph 2:8-10). There are all sins that we will die not having fully submitted to His Lordship on. But then again perhaps there are those homosexuals whom do not mean one word of what they claim and have not repented of any sins, and they are not serious.

two seperate issues in this discussion!

A person saved by the grace of God can NEVER lose the Holy Spirit, and revert back to being "unsaved" again, BUT that christian also can quench and grieve the Sprit so much that they will get to heaven at the Judgement" as if thru fire", all works burned away, and have salvation but no inheritance !

The homsexual/adultery/liar/thief/pride/gossip pick your sin area, all of us have one, christians wills till be tempted and at times fall, but they will confess and move forward...

problem is that some of us stay in the mud for far longer than we should or need to!

 

[OldRegular]

two seperate issues in this discussion!

A person saved by the grace of God can NEVER lose the Holy Spirit, and revert back to being "unsaved" again, BUT that christian also can quench and grieve the Sprit so much that they will get to heaven at the Judgement" as if thru fire", all works burned away, and have salvation but no inheritance !

Where do you find Scripture to support that nonsense. Scripture tells us clearly: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. [Romans 8:17]

And then there is this: Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. [1 John 3:2]:jesus:

Now if we will be like Jesus Christ and joint heirs with Him what more could there be!:godisgood:

 

[convicted1]

Hello Willis,

I think we can all agree on this one:laugh::wavey: I do not think God has changed His mind on this issue since Sodom and Gommorah.{he never needs to change his mind as he is immutable}
As sinners sometimes we still do not grasp the sinfulness of sin as much as we need to.

The way I understand LS is that He is our Lord and Master. Whenever we stray too far, He gives us the "rod of correction" and we get back in line. IOW, we surrender to Him, because He is our Lord.

 

[psalms109:31]

I know we are not going to ever make it to heaven on our own righteousness. We should never put our selves on the Law that leads to death. The righteous man said before God I am done. I am a man with unclean lips. Job has said

Job 9:
29 Since I am already found guilty,
why should I struggle in vain?
30 Even if I washed myself with soap
and my hands with cleansing powder,
31 you would plunge me into a slime pit
so that even my clothes would detest me.

32 “He is not a mere mortal like me that I might answer him,
that we might confront each other in court.
33 If only there were someone to mediate between us,
someone to bring us together,
34 someone to remove God’s rod from me,
so that his terror would frighten me no more.
35 Then I would speak up without fear of him,
but as it now stands with me, I cannot.

But praise God for Jesus Christ

Job16:
18 “Earth, do not cover my blood;
may my cry never be laid to rest!
19 Even now my witness is in heaven;
my advocate is on high.
20 My intercessor is my friend
as my eyes pour out tears to God;
21 on behalf of a man he pleads with God
as one pleads for a friend.

22 “Only a few years will pass
before I take the path of no return.

We live our life not for our own salvation but others, because those who believe in Christ rivers of living water will flow from within them. It doesn't come from us, but Christ who lives from within us.

 

[Skandelon]

Not really.That only exists in His book

This does not look like the wicked person is just going to lose a yo-yo,and a box of crayons in heaven...looks like he is not making the trip, unless he repents.:thumbs:

I agree, but what do you believe about those who repent yet continue to struggle throughout their lives with the same patterns of sin? Addictions? etc?

 

[webdog]

Here is my review of the book Eternal Security by Stanley which I finished tonight.



Am I understanding correctly the views presented? Lordship teaches that those that do not submit in every area of their life and die as Homosexuals "christians" whom have not gotten victory will go to hell. However Lutzer & Stanley say otherwise.

You are partly right. Stanley does believe they will spend the millenium in hell, sort of a "baptist purgatory" then be restored to the kingdom.

If committing any one sin after salvation prevents someone from Heaven, this is nothing more than works based salvation.

 

[convicted1]

You are partly right. Stanley does believe they will spend the millenium in hell, sort of a "baptist purgatory" then be restored to the kingdom.

Is this the ME doctrine that got some banned on here a few years ago?

If committing any one sin after salvation prevents someone from Heaven, this is nothing more than works based salvation.

Agreed. That is why it states in the bible we are saved by grace through faith, and not works by faith. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[convicted1]

I agree, but what do you believe about those who repent yet continue to struggle throughout their lives with the same patterns of sin? Addictions? etc?

Remember, Brother Skandelon, Jesus breaks the yoke of sin off of us, and puts His yoke upon us, and His yoke is easy, and His burden is light.

 

[webdog]

Is this the ME doctrine that got some banned on here a few years ago?

That's it!

 

[convicted1]

that's it!

ugh!!!!!!!!

 

[webdog]

Remember, Brother Skandelon, Jesus breaks the yoke of sin off of us, and puts His yoke upon us, and His yoke is easy, and His burden is light.

...when we are walking by the Spirit.

Besides refuting LS, the following passage shows true believers can live as unbelievers.

Instructions for Christian Living

17 So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. 18 They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. 19 Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, and they are full of greed.

20 That, however, is not the way of life you learned 21 when you heard about Christ and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. 22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

25 Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to your neighbor, for we are all members of one body. 26 “In your anger do not sin”[d]: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, 27 and do not give the devil a foothold. 28 Anyone who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with their own hands, that they may have something to share with those in need.

29 Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

1 Cor. 3 Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans?

5... It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. 2 And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this?

 

[The Archangel]

I agree, but what do you believe about those who repent yet continue to struggle throughout their lives with the same patterns of sin? Addictions? etc?

The issue does go deeper, doesn't it?

As Mark Dever has commented (a paraphrase): A true Christian will always take God's side against sin. A "false" Christian will take sin's side against God.

There is a massive difference between a Christian who struggles with sin, patterns of sin, addiction, etc. and a Christian who embraces and indulges sin.

A "test" of sorts is what a person does once confronted with the sin: Do they confess what they're doing is a sin at all? Do they admit their struggle against it? Do they ask for help in the struggle? If a person does these things then it is likely they are a true believer who is struggling. This is a person who, even though he struggles, takes God's side against sin.

On the other hand, if a person is confronted with sin and they reply: It's OK, God knows I like ___________. Then this is a clear indication of someone who has not taken God's side against sin. This person simply isn't a Christian.

This passage sums it up best, I think:

[9] Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [10] nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. [11] And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11 ESV)​

The passage states a very simple truth: One cannot freely commit the sins listed (ie. take the side of these sins against God) and be a Christian.

Many of the anti-Lordship salvation group want use their flawed understanding of things to "sin all they want." A true believer will always "sin more than they want."

The Archangel