Lordship Salvation vs. Free Grace

[convicted1]

The issue does go deeper, doesn't it?

As Mark Dever has commented (a paraphrase): A true Christian will always take God's side against sin. A "false" Christian will take sin's side against God.

There is a massive difference between a Christian who struggles with sin, patterns of sin, addiction, etc. and a Christian who embraces and indulges sin.

A "test" of sorts is what a person does once confronted with the sin: Do they confess what they're doing is a sin at all? Do they admit their struggle against it? Do they ask for help in the struggle? If a person does these things then it is likely they are a true believer who is struggling. This is a person who, even though he struggles, takes God's side against sin.

On the other hand, if a person is confronted with sin and they reply: It's OK, God knows I like ___________. Then this is a clear indication of someone who has not taken God's side against sin. This person simply isn't a Christian.

This passage sums it up best, I think:

[9] Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [10] nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. [11] And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11 ESV)​

The passage states a very simple truth: One cannot freely commit the sins listed (ie. take the side of these sins against God) and be a Christian.

Many of the anti-Lordship salvation group want use their flawed understanding of things to "sin all they want." A true believer will always "sin more than they want."

The Archangel

Very well stated. You said this better than I could ever do. :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[Yeshua1]

Where do you find Scripture to support that nonsense. Scripture tells us clearly: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together. [Romans 8:17]

And then there is this: Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is. [1 John 3:2]:jesus:

Now if we will be like Jesus Christ and joint heirs with Him what more could there be!:godisgood:

Check Apostle paul, as he stated that ALL saints shall appear before jesus for a judgement o ftheir good works/deed done for him, and some will make it in "by the skin of their teeth", as ALL works was worthless, and ALL they had was Jesus, but that is always enough!

 

[Yeshua1]

The issue does go deeper, doesn't it?

As Mark Dever has commented (a paraphrase): A true Christian will always take God's side against sin. A "false" Christian will take sin's side against God.

There is a massive difference between a Christian who struggles with sin, patterns of sin, addiction, etc. and a Christian who embraces and indulges sin.

A "test" of sorts is what a person does once confronted with the sin: Do they confess what they're doing is a sin at all? Do they admit their struggle against it? Do they ask for help in the struggle? If a person does these things then it is likely they are a true believer who is struggling. This is a person who, even though he struggles, takes God's side against sin.

On the other hand, if a person is confronted with sin and they reply: It's OK, God knows I like ___________. Then this is a clear indication of someone who has not taken God's side against sin. This person simply isn't a Christian.

This passage sums it up best, I think:

[9] Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [10] nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. [11] And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11 ESV)​

The passage states a very simple truth: One cannot freely commit the sins listed (ie. take the side of these sins against God) and be a Christian.

Many of the anti-Lordship salvation group want use their flawed understanding of things to "sin all they want." A true believer will always "sin more than they want."

The Archangel

Think we are warning against going tot he extreme position of 'sinless perfection", as no one has assurance of their salvation if that is held up!

thankfully, a true christian will never 'enjoy their sin" for more than a short season, if at all, as the Holy Spirit will keep on convicting them!

 

[Skandelon]

The issue does go deeper, doesn't it?

As Mark Dever has commented (a paraphrase): A true Christian will always take God's side against sin. A "false" Christian will take sin's side against God.

There is a massive difference between a Christian who struggles with sin, patterns of sin, addiction, etc. and a Christian who embraces and indulges sin.

A "test" of sorts is what a person does once confronted with the sin: Do they confess what they're doing is a sin at all? Do they admit their struggle against it? Do they ask for help in the struggle? If a person does these things then it is likely they are a true believer who is struggling. This is a person who, even though he struggles, takes God's side against sin.

On the other hand, if a person is confronted with sin and they reply: It's OK, God knows I like ___________. Then this is a clear indication of someone who has not taken God's side against sin. This person simply isn't a Christian.

This passage sums it up best, I think:

[9] Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [10] nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. [11] And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11 ESV)​

The passage states a very simple truth: One cannot freely commit the sins listed (ie. take the side of these sins against God) and be a Christian.

Many of the anti-Lordship salvation group want use their flawed understanding of things to "sin all they want." A true believer will always "sin more than they want."

The Archangel

:thumbsup: Well said.

 

[Revmitchell]

The issue does go deeper, doesn't it?

As Mark Dever has commented (a paraphrase): A true Christian will always take God's side against sin. A "false" Christian will take sin's side against God.

There is a massive difference between a Christian who struggles with sin, patterns of sin, addiction, etc. and a Christian who embraces and indulges sin.

A "test" of sorts is what a person does once confronted with the sin: Do they confess what they're doing is a sin at all? Do they admit their struggle against it? Do they ask for help in the struggle? If a person does these things then it is likely they are a true believer who is struggling. This is a person who, even though he struggles, takes God's side against sin.

On the other hand, if a person is confronted with sin and they reply: It's OK, God knows I like ___________. Then this is a clear indication of someone who has not taken God's side against sin. This person simply isn't a Christian.

This passage sums it up best, I think:

[9] Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [10] nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. [11] And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11 ESV)​

The passage states a very simple truth: One cannot freely commit the sins listed (ie. take the side of these sins against God) and be a Christian.

Many of the anti-Lordship salvation group want use their flawed understanding of things to "sin all they want." A true believer will always "sin more than they want."

The Archangel

I agree with the others, well said. :thumbs:

 

[Luke2427]

...when we are walking by the Spirit.

Besides refuting LS, the following passage shows true believers can live as unbelievers.

Instructions for Christian Living

17 So I tell you this, and insist on it in the Lord, that you must no longer live as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their thinking. 18 They are darkened in their understanding and separated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them due to the hardening of their hearts. 19 Having lost all sensitivity, they have given themselves over to sensuality so as to indulge in every kind of impurity, and they are full of greed.

20 That, however, is not the way of life you learned 21 when you heard about Christ and were taught in him in accordance with the truth that is in Jesus. 22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

25 Therefore each of you must put off falsehood and speak truthfully to your neighbor, for we are all members of one body. 26 “In your anger do not sin”[d]: Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, 27 and do not give the devil a foothold. 28 Anyone who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with their own hands, that they may have something to share with those in need.

29 Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. 30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31 Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32 Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.

1 Cor. 3 Brothers and sisters, I could not address you as people who live by the Spirit but as people who are still worldly—mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready. 3 You are still worldly. For since there is jealousy and quarreling among you, are you not worldly? Are you not acting like mere humans?

5... It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that even pagans do not tolerate: A man is sleeping with his father’s wife. 2 And you are proud! Shouldn’t you rather have gone into mourning and have put out of your fellowship the man who has been doing this?

Yea, I agree with maybe a bit of a caveat.


I'm afraid I'm going to have to veer a bit from some of my fellow reformed brethren on this one.

Truly Christian people commit all kinds of terrible sins- and many of them commit them often and continually.

We know this because of passages like the one you provide here and many others like it.

HOWEVER...

It is extremely important for ALL OF US to agree on this: believing that Jesus Christ is Lord is ESSENTIAL to salvation. Bowing ones self to his Lordship is essential.

Absolutely ESSENTIAL.

But what this does not mean is the immediate reduction of sinning in your life to where you might sin a bunch but not enough to be called any of the sin titles in Corinthians 6.

The idea some seem to promote is that you might commit adultery but you will do it so rarely that you could avoid being called an adulterer.

You might commit adultery only once every fifteen years- but that's ok.

As long as you don't commit it every 6 years- THEN YOU'RE AN ADULTERER!!!

See that just does not make sense to me.

But what I PLEAD for everyone to do is not swing the pendulum against this thinking too far the other way where one declares- "Oh you don't even have to recognize in any meaningful way that Jesus Christ is Lord in order to be saved!"

That is deadly thinking.