Lordship Salvation

You are simply denying Scripture, in fact implying a works based salvation. What more need be said except a son is a son is a son?

 

Can you show that from scripture? A son is a son is a son? There are firstborn sons, and bastards also.

 

The Lordship Salvation Movement was an overeaction to the easy believeism of such churches as Hyles.

It lead to statements such as this:

So for some, salvation is a gift exchange, our lives in exchange for salvation. The cost of being like Christ(discipleship) is now blured with the cost of salvation(which for us is nothing - because it a free gift).

Some of us Christians believe the truth lies in the middle of these two extremes.

Saying a magic 1-2-3 prayer does not save anyone but neither does making a pledge to the Lord that you will give up all your bad habits if he will save you.

Here the repentance that leads to salvation:
Being saved is believing in your heart(not just saying the words) that Jesus Christ is your Lord(God) and Savior. In accepting him as Lord you accept that he is God and has control over everything in creation including you. It does not mean however that you have given up all your bad habits at the point of salvation.

In accepting him as Savior it you believe that you understand what he is saving you from, that you need to be saved from your sin and the penalty of that sin which is death - that he is the only way, his shed blood payed the price for your sins.

If you believe these things in your heart, it will change your life. But not all Christians grow at the same rate, and some may never let Christ give them the victory over certain sins but salvation does not rest upon our victory over sins in these sin cursed bodies, but upon Christ's victory over sin and his righteousness that has been credited(inputed) to us when we believed.

The other kind of repentance is what happens after we are saved. We as Christians, with the Holy Spirit dwelling in us and with the power of God at our disposal, are now commanded to weed out the sin in our life as God shows it to us, to repent of(turn from) our sins and grow in walk with God.

IFBReformer

 

What would you say to someone who was saved at say 8, showed evidence of salvation but was not discipled well up through high school, backslid during their college years, and then was restored by God? This person recognized Jesus as Lord... as did Peter, indulged in significant sin and unfaithfulness, but repented.

Does God not use those times of failure? Was Peter not humbled and made more useful to God by having his pride broken?

I believe fully that God will accomplish His will in the elect. I am not sure that it is the even, consistent process that some seem to think.

 

According to Scripture a bastard is not a son but perhaps you don't believe that either!

Hebrews 12:7,8
7. If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8. But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

To repeat myself the Apostle Paul states that if we are children of God we are heirs and joint heirs with Jesus Christ:

Romans 8:14-17
14. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
15. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
16. The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17. And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

 

if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

 

Read the passage:

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ;

It is very plain, if we are children of God then we are joint heirs with Jesus Christ. You are ignoring what Scripture is saying in an attempt to justify your error. Elsewhere we read:

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Galatians 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

 

Are you saying that every believer will automatically suffer? Just because we are a child of God and an heir, does not mean we will inherit the promise. All the Israelites were partakers of the same promise, but they did not all get to enter the promised land.

1 Corinthians 10:1-11
1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;
3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;
4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
11 Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

Are you saying that we cannot lust, be idolaters, commit fornication, tempt Christ, murmur? These are examples to us, written for our admonition. If we are the seed of Abraham, and heirs according to the promise to Abraham, we are under the same conditions for obtaining the promise that they were. If we do not please God, we may be overthrown as well.

 

You say nothing that negates the following:

The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ;

It is very plain, if we are children of God then we are joint heirs with Jesus Christ. You are ignoring what Scripture is saying in an attempt to justify your error. Elsewhere we read:

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Titus 3:7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Galatians 4:7 Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.

 

I'm saying that being an heir does not = inherit.

Hebrews 12:15-17
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;
16 Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.
17 For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.

Do you assume that all believers will endure chastising?

Hebrews 12:5-8
5 And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him:
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

 

Heir is a translation of the Greek word "kleronomos" and means

1) one who receives by lot, an heir
1a) an heir
1b) in Messianic usage, one who receives his allotted possession by right of sonship
2) one who has acquired or obtained the portion allotted to him

You lose again.

Where does Scripture state that Esau was an heir?

I don't have to assume anything. The Scripture you posted above clearly states: But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

Wes, surely you are not going to deny more Scripture? You will soon run out of Scripture to deny.

 

Wes? Anyway, the very fact that there is a command not to despise chastising means it is possible. If we do not endure it, we faint or despise it, we are not going to be dealt with as sons. We will be bastards. You can say that such an one was appointed to be a bastard, I say make your calling and election sure.

An heir is also the title given to one who is supposed to inherit. You may be an heir, but you haven't inherited the promise yet, have you brother? Here is the same word in english:

An heir does not imply that he will inherit, it merely implies he is appointed to inherit.

Esau was an heir of the promise by virtue of his status as firstborn.
Deuteronomy 21
16 Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn:
17 But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hath: for he is the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn is his.

Firstborn sons receive the greater inheritance. He had a birthright that he sold to Jacob for some pottage.

 

Lev 14:34 When ye be come into the land of Canaan, which I give to you for a possession, and I put the plague of leprosy in a house of the land of your possession;
Lev 23:10 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:
Lev 25:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye come into the land which I give you, then shall the land keep a sabbath unto the LORD.
Num 15:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land of your habitations, which I give unto you,

Seems to me these Israelites were promised some land. Does that mean they all received the promise?

Numbers 14:11-12
11 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long will this people provoke me? and how long will it be ere they believe me, for all the signs which I have shewed among them?
12 I will smite them with the pestilence, and disinherit them, and will make of thee a greater nation and mightier than they.
Numbers 14:22-23
22 Because all those men which have seen my glory, and my miracles, which I did in Egypt and in the wilderness, and have tempted me now these ten times, and have not hearkened to my voice;
23 Surely they shall not see the land which I sware unto their fathers, neither shall any of them that provoked me see it:

Just because a promise seems to be unconditional, in this case the promise of inheriting the 'promised land', does not mean that you can latch on to it without comparing scripture with scripture. If you think you have an unconditional promise of reigning with Jesus in His kingdom, you need to make sure there is not a condition revealed elsewhere in the bible.

 

Sorry about the Wes thing! That being said I repeat what Scripture states But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

An heir does not imply that he will inherit, it merely implies he is appointed to inherit.

Esau was an heir of the promise by virtue of his status as firstborn.
Deuteronomy 21
16 Then it shall be, when he maketh his sons to inherit that which he hath, that he may not make the son of the beloved firstborn before the son of the hated, which is indeed the firstborn:
17 But he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the firstborn, by giving him a double portion of all that he hath: for he is the beginning of his strength; the right of the firstborn is his.

Firstborn sons receive the greater inheritance. He had a birthright that he sold to Jacob for some pottage. </font>[/QUOTE]Heir is a translation of the Greek word "kleronomos" and means

1) one who receives by lot, an heir
1a) an heir
1b) in Messianic usage, one who receives his allotted possession by right of sonship
2) one who has acquired or obtained the portion allotted to him

 

Scripture states that God's promises to Israel were fulfilled:

Joshua 21:43-45
43. And the LORD gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
44. And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
45. There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

1 Kings 8:54-56
54. And it was so, that when Solomon had made an end of praying all this prayer and supplication unto the LORD, he arose from before the altar of the LORD, from kneeling on his knees with his hands spread up to heaven.
55. And he stood, and blessed all the congregation of Israel with a loud voice, saying,
56. Blessed be the LORD, that hath given rest unto his people Israel, according to all that he promised: there hath not failed one word of all his good promise, which he promised by the hand of Moses his servant.

Nehemiah 9:8, 22-26
8. And foundest his heart faithful before thee, and madest a covenant with him to give the land of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Jebusites, and the Girgashites, to give it, I say, to his seed, and hast performed thy words; for thou art righteous:
22. Moreover thou gavest them kingdoms and nations, and didst divide them into corners: so they possessed the land of Sihon, and the land of the king of Heshbon, and the land of Og king of Bashan.
23. Their children also multipliedst thou as the stars of heaven, and broughtest them into the land, concerning which thou hadst promised to their fathers, that they should go in to possess it.
24. So the children went in and possessed the land, and thou subduedst before them the inhabitants of the land, the Canaanites, and gavest them into their hands, with their kings, and the people of the land, that they might do with them as they would.
25. And they took strong cities, and a fat land, and possessed houses full of all goods, wells digged, vineyards, and oliveyards, and fruit trees in abundance: so they did eat, and were filled, and became fat, and delighted themselves in thy great goodness.

 

So who was the promise to? All the children of Israel? Or just the ones who actually inherited the land? It certainly seems to say that they will all go in, until it says they won't. We cannot assume that a general promise to all Christians means every Christian absolutely will obtain the promise.

Heb 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

 

Quote the entire passage:

Hebrews 4:1-6
1. Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
2. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.
3. For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
4. For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5. And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6. Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:

 

OK, so what did they not believe? And what does this warning mean to us? Let us fear. Us is us, right? Can we fall short of a promise?

Quote the rest of the passage:

Hebrews 4:6-11
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

There is still a rest to be had for the people of God. We are supposed to labour to enter into that rest, and we (thats us, born-again Christians) can still fall after the same example of unbelief. This is not talking about our eternal salvation. You don't get saved by labouring, right? You get saved by believing on the finished work of Christ. This is labouring to please God, to get the reward of the kingdom, the rest of the seventh day.

Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

This isn't talking about faith in Christ (of course you mst be born again!) This is talking about having faith that Christ is going to reward you for seeking Him, for doing His will, for knowing Him daily through your walk. Every Christian is going to be rewarded for his works, whether they be good or bad.

Matthew 16:24-27
24 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.
26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?
27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

 

Many times "Lordship Salvation" will be we have to trust Jesus Christ as our Savior, but also we must ---.

We are saved by the Grace of God through faith, and Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior. But this is not Lordship salvation, so I don’t believe in Lordship salvation, for Lordship normally requires something of us, and that type of salvation was found under the Old Covenant of the circumcised. ituttut

 

Is it only a little disheartening to me that we baptist fight over every issue?