Lordship Salvation

Hi It.

Actually before you prove that any Pauline text does not refer at all to water baptism, and before you prove which of the five views about Spirit Baptism I tossed out to you is correct, and before you respond to my 17 points, beginning with #17, could I not ask you to first address a new point?

#18-- The Council at Jerusalem, Acts 15.

As I understand you, correct me if I'm wrong, you are saying that Paul's Gospel given him in prison included new and distinctive elements not parts of Peter or James' Gospel, namely, (1) salvation by grace (2) through faith (3) unto the Gentiles.

However, it appears to me that Acts 15 shows that it is very questionable that these features are new and distinct elements in Paul's Gospel given him in prison!

For here, the inspired writer records,

(1) Peter as saying,

(a)The Gentiles are accepted by God (15:8),

(b) The Gentiles are saved by faith (15:9),

() The Gentiles are are saved by grace(15:11).

(d) These data are evident because of what God did through Peter--NOT Paul (15:7).

(2) Then, James is recorded as saying

(a) The Gentiles are turning to God (implying their inclusion) (15:19)

(b) The Gentiles do not have to keep the Law( 15:24-29).

(c) Peter's (not Paul's) declarations are correct because they match what the OT prophets (not Paul) said.

I really do not see here evidence for your view that Paul started some new thing.

 

You hit the nail on the head UZThD, Paul did not start anything new. There is only one Gospel, there has always been only one Gospel, and there will always be only one Gospel:the Power of God unto Salvation.

 

Lordship Salvation is not Biblical;not if you understand Greek and Hebrew and the meaning of the words in the orginal languages.

 

You hit the nail on the head UZThD, Paul did not start anything new. There is only one Gospel, there has always been only one Gospel, and there will always be only one Gospel:the Power of God unto Salvation. </font>[/QUOTE]I see the unlearned and unstable are still alive and well PUBLISHING "falsehood", CONTRADICTING Pauline testimony of SUBSEQUENT REVELATION. (2 Peter 3)

Paul's gospel IS NOT the gospel of the kingdom, which the 12 preached BEFORE his crucifixion. (Matt.10) They DIDN'T KNOW, UNDERSTAND, OR BELIEVE in the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ BEFORE his resurrection. (Luke 18, 24, John 20) They PREACHED the "gospel" BUT IT WASN'T the one we preach!

THEY LEARNED the gospel of God FROM the Lord Jesus Christ AFTER HIS RESURRECTION. (Luke 24)

They LEARNED Paul's gospel in Acts 15/Gal.2 after he COMMUNICATED it unto them. They PERCEIVED the "grace which was given unto him" by the HOLY SPIRIT. (Eph.3, Rom.15)

Anyone (and I say this with "charity") who reads those verses STATING there is only ONE GOSPEL can't read English and has no business AT ALL trying to EXPOUND "any verse" of scripture to anyone at anytime.

The gospels are DEFINED and they are DIFFERENT from each other by VIRTUE of the words of the Holy Ghost. (1 Cor.2)

 

The Apostle Paul describes the Gospel of Jesus Christ in Romans 1:16 as follows: For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

The Apostle Paul also had some harsh things to say about those who argue that there is more than one Gospel in his letter to the church at Galatia.

Galatians 1:6-9
6. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

I said in an earlier post that there is only one Gospel; the power of God unto salvation, Paul calls it the Gospel of Christ. The reader can judge how many Gospels there are.

 

There is a CLASSIC EXAMPLE of the "false way" of ANOTHER FALSE TEACHER who circumvents the HOLY SCRIPTURES through his NONRESPONSE. (Psalm 119:104)

Paul's gospel was SUBSEQUENT REVELATION from PRIOR TEACHING. (Gal.1-2)

Yes folks, Paul DID have a lot to say about FALSE TEACHERS who teach ANOTHER GOSPEL "after" his gospel was HISTORICALLY REVEALED TO HIM by the Lord Jesus, AND THEN to the other apostles and prophets by the HOLY SPIRIT! (Eph.3, John 14) That gospel concerned WORKS, while his contained GRACE ALONE. (Gal.2-3, Rom.11)

He ALSO has a lot to say about those who teach false doctrine DUE TO not "rightly dividing the word of truth", who teach CONTRARY and CONTRADICT Pauline SUBSEQUENT REVELATION. (2 Tim.2)

 

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Bill replies: Prove that there are two Gospels.

Miracles are still wrought, WB is still done, repentance is still preached ALL BY PAUL!

And THAT sinks your ship!

 

For those interested there were a number of heretical movements in the 19th century who claimed additional revelation or denied existing revelation!

The Mormons.
The Seventh Day Adventists.
Christian Science.
The Jehovah's Witnesses.

And in the 20th century:

The World Wide Church of God [Armstrongism].
The Word of Faith movement of Kenyon, Hagin, Copeland and their ilk.

 

I see the unlearned and unstable are still alive and well PUBLISHING "falsehood", CONTRADICTING Pauline testimony of SUBSEQUENT REVELATION. (2 Peter 3)


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Bill replies:

I am NOT saying that Paul did not receive revelation. I am saying he did not preach a different Gospel than Peter did in Acts and Jesus did in John. Paul defines that Gospel in 1 Cor 15 and Gal 1, and the elements of it are not new!

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Paul's gospel IS NOT the gospel of the kingdom, which the 12 preached BEFORE his crucifixion. (Matt.10) They DIDN'T KNOW, UNDERSTAND, OR BELIEVE in the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ BEFORE his resurrection. (Luke 18, 24, John 20) They PREACHED the "gospel" BUT IT WASN'T the one we preach!


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Bill replies: I agree that the disciples BEFORE the resurrection of Christ did not understand Christ's Gospel.

But I deny that Christ did not preach His vicarious death, reserrection, and salvation by grace through faith BEFORE His resurrection. He PLAINLY does in John's Gospel.

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THEY LEARNED the gospel of God FROM the Lord Jesus Christ AFTER HIS RESURRECTION. (Luke 24)

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Bill replies:

But it WAS taught before His resurrection by Jesus in John.

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They LEARNED Paul's gospel in Acts 15/Gal.2 after he COMMUNICATED it unto them. They PERCEIVED the "grace which was given unto him" by the HOLY SPIRIT. (Eph.3, Rom.15)

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Bill replies:

Acts 15 does NOT say that Paul's Gospel was different! Acts 15 has Peter and James saying BOTH Jews and Gentiles are saved by grace thru faith. AND Peter and James said this because of what Peter did and because of OT prophecies NOT because of Paul!

This is NOT a different Gospel than Jesus preached in John! Of course Paul WAS given grace. But where is it said that he was given a NEW Gospel different than the one in Acts and in John?

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Anyone (and I say this with "charity") who reads those verses STATING there is only ONE GOSPEL can't read English and has no business AT ALL trying to EXPOUND "any verse" of scripture to anyone at anytime.

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If you are saying that Paul taught a Gospel different than Jesus taught in John, then, let's have your proof.

 

I see the unlearned and unstable are still alive and well PUBLISHING "falsehood", CONTRADICTING Pauline testimony of SUBSEQUENT REVELATION. (2 Peter 3)


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Bill replies:

I am NOT saying that Paul did not receive revelation. I am saying he did not preach a different Gospel than Peter did in Acts and Jesus did in John. Paul defines that Gospel in 1 Cor 15 and Gal 1, and the elements of it are not new!

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Paul's gospel IS NOT the gospel of the kingdom, which the 12 preached BEFORE his crucifixion. (Matt.10) They DIDN'T KNOW, UNDERSTAND, OR BELIEVE in the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ BEFORE his resurrection. (Luke 18, 24, John 20) They PREACHED the "gospel" BUT IT WASN'T the one we preach!


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Bill replies: I agree that the disciples BEFORE the resurrection of Christ did not understand Christ's Gospel.

But I deny that Christ did not preach His vicarious death, reserrection, and salvation by grace through faith BEFORE His resurrection. He PLAINLY does in John's Gospel.

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THEY LEARNED the gospel of God FROM the Lord Jesus Christ AFTER HIS RESURRECTION. (Luke 24)

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Bill replies:

But it WAS taught before His resurrection by Jesus in John.

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They LEARNED Paul's gospel in Acts 15/Gal.2 after he COMMUNICATED it unto them. They PERCEIVED the "grace which was given unto him" by the HOLY SPIRIT. (Eph.3, Rom.15)

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Bill replies:

Acts 15 does NOT say that Paul's Gospel was different! Acts 15 has Peter and James saying BOTH Jews and Gentiles are saved by grace thru faith. AND Peter and James said this because of what Peter did and because of OT prophecies NOT because of Paul!

This is NOT a different Gospel than Jesus preached in John! Of course Paul WAS given grace. But where is it said that he was given a NEW Gospel different than the one in Acts and in John?

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Anyone (and I say this with "charity") who reads those verses STATING there is only ONE GOSPEL can't read English and has no business AT ALL trying to EXPOUND "any verse" of scripture to anyone at anytime.

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If you are saying that Paul taught a Gospel different than Jesus taught in John, then, let's have your proof. </font>[/QUOTE]Doctor Bill,

Quit arguing what it doesn't state. You can get it.

The proof is in the verses, which have been presented. You have denied them. They're laid out for you very simply.

It is progressive.

Your errors are apparent.

Paul DID PREACH a different gospel than the Lord and the 12 DURING THE GOSPELS, and he preached one DIFFERENT that the PETER at Pentecost. The VERSES show that.

Christ SPOKE OF HIS D,B, and R to his apostles WHO DIDN"T UNDERSTAND IT, nor preach it BY CHRIST'S own command. (Matt.16) THEY WERE PREACHING THE GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM THOUGH.

Come on, Doc. Read it. IT WAS NOT PAUL'S GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD. Why did you leave out GAL.2, where Paul COMMUNICATED HIS GOSPEL unto them? Gal.2 is the backroom meeting, while Acts 15 is the public proclamation AFTER the apostles at Jerusalem PERCEIVED THE GRACE THAT WAS GIVEN TO PAUL.

Don't evade those verses, Doc. Believe them.

Paul's RECEPTION of his gospel is RECORDED in Gal.1, 1 Cor.9, Col.1, and Eph.3,6. He received a dispensation of the gospel.

The MYSTERY IS CONNECTED WITH HIS GOSPEL. (Eph.3,6) He got one with the other.

Now, I'm not going to wrangle and wrestle. You've got THE VERSES there. Study them.

Good day brother.

 

OK Carl

Let's stop playing "he said/he said."


If you claim that Paul taught things which Jesus in John did not, and that Paul said those very things were part of his "Gospel ," then name those things and give the texts where Paul says they are part of his Gospel.

EVERYTHING Paul taught was not " the Gospel." He defines his Gospel in Gal 1 and 1 Cor 15.

Read it. Then read John. Then, tell me the difference!

Blessings,

Bill

 

Heh! there was another mystery [another gospel] revealed to Joseph Smith sometime in the 1830's or so. [In fact, it was on gold pages in King James English; you can't get any better than that, or can you?] Since that revelation to old Joe is later in time than the mystery supposedly revealed to Paul is it better?

 

Doctor Bill,

We're NOT going to leave so quickly. I produced VERSES which SHOW the 12 DURING THE GOSPELS did not preach the D,B, and R, YET they preached the gospel of the kingdom was "at hand" DURING THE GOSPELS. Those gospels are different.

Now, AGREE with the TESTIMONY of those verses. We can then move on to others.

In Christ Jesus,
Carl

 

Why you poor soul. You don't know the difference in biblical facts (progressive revelation of truth) and falsehood from a LIAR?

It seems the last time you were corrected by the Book, you got mad at me, whined, then slandered me, and disappeared, vowing never to talk to a dispensationalist again. I think that is how it went.

Your incompetence is showing again. Supposedly revealed?

Paul SAID and WROTE the MYSTERY was REVEALED to him. (Eph.3) Of course, you've got to be able to read it.

Such is the way of bible babblers.

 

Jesus Christ and all the Apostles preached only one Gospel. As the Apostle Paul says let him who says otherwise be; well let Scripture [Galatians, Chapter 1] tell you.

 

Ah, these malicious kids (1 Cor.2-3, 14) who only "blow" hot air for attention while distorting verses used as FALSE PROOFTEXTS.

Brethren, note the "blatant disregard" of the verses which have PREVIOUSLY been given that REFUTE this lie. He ONLY puts forth his "mental dementia", QUOTING a passage by the APOSTLE Paul, who COMMUNICATED his gospel unto the apostles at Jerusalem HISTORICALLY in Acts 15. (Gal.2) The delirious won't touch the text. Galatians 1 was written AFTER Acts 15, WHICH WAS AFTER the apostles PERCEIVED THE GRACE (Eph.3, Rom.15) which was given unto Paul! Their dementia won't let them compare scripture with scripture to find out what Paul said. These disgraceful DISPUTERS of God's words can't teach the Bible, for they can't READ nor do they KNOW or UNDERSTAND plain bible statements.

The Pauline MYSTERY was "subsequent revelation" which ENDED THE PREVIOUS COMMISSIONS of the apostles at Jerusalem. What fool doesn't know that ANYONE who preaches anything EXCEPT Paul's gospel is accursed? The apostles at Jerusalem PERCEIVED Paul's gospel in Gal.2, WHEN he went up to COMMUNICATE it to them.

Only poor, deceived, duds like this false teaching fibber of ONE GOSPEL. The Book messes up their "false way" EVERY TIME. (Matt.3,4,10, Luke 18,24, Mark 16, Acts 2, 20, Rev.14) Four different gospels are found within the chapters.

 

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Bill replies:

By way of discusion in two posts above I gave you 10 reasons , "proof," for my position and you did not respond. I don't think there was a barb in any of them.

I’m little behind on my posting. Was on another board and also I sometimes have to make time to get on my computer. Sorry ‘bout that. My above did not address your 10 reasons. However I just answered your “10 reasons” May 30th. Busy schedule, but I’ll try to catch up down the line.

1) you say: I make Paul a liar by thinking that Eph 3:2,3 means that it was not only to Paul that the mystery was revealed.

But Paul nowhere says it was revealed just to him or first to him. Paul there says it was revealed to , "Holy apostles and prophets."

Therefore, Eph 3 does not say that Paul was preaching any new Gospel.

Are you denying”If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward”?


2) you say Rom 16:25 refers to a dispensational Gospel which is Paul's (because) he says "MY Gospel" and refers to a something hidden but now revealed and made known."

But friend IT, Paul does not say in Rom 16 that it was revealed only or even first to him!

Paul there plainly says, "now revealed THROUGH PROPHETIC WRITINGS"!!!

The meaning is that those poorly understood promises which God deposited in the OT in reference to the Gentiles were now being made clear.

But Paul here in Rom 16 does not even say that only he understood them.

Paul clearly says that The Gospel which he proclaims is the VERY SAME GOSPEL promised by the OT prophets in the Scriptures ( Rom1:2)!!

But I see Paul’s gospel is different and new to the Gentile for Jesus says He did not come for me, then James and Peter say the church at Jerusalem will not preach to me, and Paul and Barnabas shook hand with the leaders of the church of the circumcision, they Paul and Barnabas would go to the Gentile. That’s me. My friend I say this is a New gospel, otherwise all we heathen would have no other choice than to become a proselyte of the Jewish religion.

”Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, 2. (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) 3. Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh”. In reading these wonderful words I see an Old Gospel of promises by “his prophets Concerning His Son Jesus Christ our Lord. Isaiah speaks of Him in chapter 53.

Isn’t this what Paul is talking about? Paul is now here to say it is true, it is all true; He with no name came and Paul explains it to all of us today, and to them at that time. What was the gospel before Paul? The kingdom gospel of John the Baptist to the Jew, and the great commission of Jesus, until the stoning of Stephen. This was also the gospel of the leader at the beginning of Pentecost, Peter, the “great commission of repent and be baptized for the remission of sins”. And yes when the house of Israel had done this, then the heathen would be preached to. To the Jew first, and then to the Gentile is found through out His Word.

Since Paul is writing to those Romans, we know the Gentiles are now included in the plan of God that was hidden until Paul since from the beginning. Who is this Paul who was commissioned by Christ Jesus from Heaven? “I am the Apostle to the Gentile”. This is New, and the Old prophesy of Messiah came true, leaving the Old Testament “dead”, and the New Testament “alive” in Christ Jesus.

In fact, Rom 1:1,8,9.16,,17 shows that Paul's Gospel was the very same Gospel which had been preached in Rome by another--not by Paul!

But this is the gospel of Paul. Those in chapter 16 were saved by Paul’s gospel, and some had traveled to Rome, and a number lived there; noticing Priscilla and Aquila had returned, and all would be spreading the Word of the Body of Christ to all nationalities in Rome which spread to the whole known world at that time.

"MY Gospel" does not mean a new or different Gospel.

Therefore, according to Rom 16:25,26 Paul was not preaching any new Gospel.

Then you believe that Damascus Road did not happen? Paul is the first and only heavenly appointed Apostle to the Gentile. This is a first, and this was not prophesied, that as we are saved, so now can the Jew. ” Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting”, I Timothy 1:16.


3) You say that a distinctive of Paul's Gospel is that it includes the resurrection of Christ.

But that hardly is a distinctive as it was prevalent in Peter's preaching too (Acts 2:24-33).

Therefore, Paul by preaching the resurrection of Christ certainly does not preach any new Gospel!

You’ll have to show me that quote where I say Peter doesn’t preach the resurrection. The Bodily resurrection is believed by both the Jerusalem church, and the Christian church in Antioch, and all believers of both of those churches.

4) You say that Paul does not preach the Son of David sitting as King on David's throne.

But it is rather the case that Paul does reference the lineage of Jesus (Rom 1:4) and does call Christ King ((1 Tim 1:17;6:15)!

In fact, WHILE IN PRISON Paul preached to Jews the Kingdom and said that he was imprisoned for (preaching) the hope of Israel. (Acts 28)

Therefore, Paul is not preaching any new Gospel!

I believe you must have misread, for I’ve never said Paul didn’t preach of the King. Paul was given authority by Christ in heaven to preach to both Gentile and Jew.

Messiah, Jesus Christ the King of the Jews, God is eternal and we will “live” with Him, and if we suffer, we will reign with Him. II Tim. 2:10-12, ”Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory. 11. It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: 12. If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

5) You say that in Acts 2:38 Peter is preaching a Gospel of works (repent and be baptised).

It is unfortunate, IMO, that so many think of repentance and/or baptism as works to get savedbecause we do them. They are not works to get saved.

Regardless of how you see it, it is a direct command in the “great commission” to the Jew.

Neither is "calling on the Lord" for salvation (Rom 10:13) a work to get saved even if we do it. Yet Paul said it should be done, and SO DID PETER (Acts 2:21).

Yes Peter does, as Peter is an Apostle to the Jew. And Paul is also. We see in Romans 10:1 to whom Paul is speaking to, ”Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. Paul, along with Joel is talking to the “remnant”.

YOU may call Peter's proclamation at Pentecost a works Gospel, but the Holy Spirit says was is about a GIFT (Acts 2:38). That which is given is not earned by works!

Therefore, Paul is not preaching any new Gospel!

Peter presents an IF you Repent, and……Then ye shall receive the gift. Acts 2:38 “Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” Paul says no such thing – believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved.


6) You say that Acts 16:31 shows that Paul preached a Gospel of belief which by that is different than a former Gospel.

But the KJV bases Philip's preaching on faith too (Acts 8:37).

It is not “through” faith, and Christianity had not become a fact until some years later.

And Peter preached, "Everyone who BELIEVES in Him receives forgiveness of sin... ." (Acts 10:43).

Yes and this is after Damascus Road, and God put these words into the mouth of Peter, and then God stopped Peter’s tongue. Without Peter mentioning the “great commission” of repent and be baptized, the Gentiles received the Holy Ghost. No wonder Peter and those that came with him were beyond belief.

Before the assembled Council of Christian-Jewish elders Peter proclaimed re the Gentiles, "We believe it is through the GRACE of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, JUST AS THEY ARE"!!! (Acts 15:11)

Yes they now can for this secret in the mysteries of God has become known. It was announced on Damascus Road that the Gentiles now had their own heavenly Apostle, so God sent Peter to the first Gentile to be preached to and Peter saw how the Gentile was being saved, and that is by Believing on the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ. Let’s give Peter some credit here, and Paul had talked to Peter about this matter also.

So, Peter taught salvation BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH" just like Paul did (Eph 2:8,9) !!

Kinda’ sounds like it, after Cornelius and talking to Paul, but we have to remember it had to be in connection with the Jew, as he shook hands with Paul to only go to the House of Israel with His gospel.

Therefore, Paul did not preach any new Gospel! [/QUOTE]

[/qb]Scripture above proves you wrong.

Your argumentation is weak and breaks apart against the whole counsel of God! [/QUOTE]

Again, I believe when we correctly divide the Word, we find that Christ Jesus from heaven actually did appoint His only Apostle from heaven with the Christian message of grace through faith, without works, with the free gift, all being done “without hands”. Christian faith, ituttut Galatians 1:11-12.

 

In the Gospel according to Mark we are told when the Gospel of Jesus Christ began to be taught.

Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

Now what was that Gospel? Mark tells us in later Scripture:

Mark 1:14, 15
14. Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15. And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Later in Scripture we read of Paul's rebuke of some in the church at Galatia for teaching a Gospel that he had not taught them.

Galatians 1:6, 7
6. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

However, after Paul's rebuke of the Galatians we read that in Rome Paul preached the Kingdom of God:

Acts 28:30, 31
30. And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,
31. Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

Jesus Christ preached the Kingdom of God. Was Jesus Christ preaching a different Gospel than Mark said in his introduction? Paul preached the Kingdom of God in Rome. Was Paul preaching a different Gospel in Rome than he preached to the Galatians?

Just some questions for consideration though perhaps off topic.