Lordship Salvation

OldRegular · Jun 1, 2005

I repeat much of that which I have posted before.

In the Gospel according to Mark we are told when the Gospel of Jesus Christ began to be taught.

Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

The Gospel of Jesus Christ was preached when He began His ministry. Now what was that Gospel? Mark tells us in later Scripture:

Mark 1:14, 15
14. Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15. And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

There is obviously no difference between the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the Gospel of the Kingdom of God.

Later in Scripture we read of Paul's rebuke of some in the church at Galatia for teaching a Gospel that he had not taught them.

Galatians 1:6, 7
6. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

However, after Paul's rebuke of the Galatians we read that in Rome Paul preached the Kingdom of God:

Acts 28:30, 31
30. And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,
31. Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

Some thoughts for consideration.

Jesus Christ preached the Kingdom of God. The Gospel of Mark states that this was the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Was Jesus Christ preaching a different Gospel than Mark said in his introduction? Paul preached the Kingdom of God in Rome. Was Paul preaching a different Gospel in Rome than he preached to the Galatians? The Apostle Paul writes to the church at Rome:

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Was Paul writing to the church at Rome about a different Gospel than he preached at Rome?

The truth is there is only one Gospel. There has always been only one Gospel, there is only one Gospel now, there will always be only one Gospel, the Gospel of Jesus Christ the power of God unto salvation.

carlaimpinge · Jun 2, 2005

Originally posted by OldRegular:
I repeat much of that which I have posted before.

In the Gospel according to Mark we are told when the Gospel of Jesus Christ began to be taught.

Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

The Gospel of Jesus Christ was preached when He began His ministry. Now what was that Gospel? Mark tells us in later Scripture:

Mark 1:14, 15
14. Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15. And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

There is obviously no difference between the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the Gospel of the Kingdom of God.

Later in Scripture we read of Paul's rebuke of some in the church at Galatia for teaching a Gospel that he had not taught them.

Galatians 1:6, 7
6. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

However, after Paul's rebuke of the Galatians we read that in Rome Paul preached the Kingdom of God:

Acts 28:30, 31
30. And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,
31. Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

Some thoughts for consideration.

Jesus Christ preached the Kingdom of God. The Gospel of Mark states that this was the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Was Jesus Christ preaching a different Gospel than Mark said in his introduction? Paul preached the Kingdom of God in Rome. Was Paul preaching a different Gospel in Rome than he preached to the Galatians? The Apostle Paul writes to the church at Rome:

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Was Paul writing to the church at Rome about a different Gospel than he preached at Rome?

The truth is there is only one Gospel. There has always been only one Gospel, there is only one Gospel now, there will always be only one Gospel, the Gospel of Jesus Christ the power of God unto salvation.
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Paul said these false teachers would speak lies in hypocrisy in the latter days. The false belief is taught to overthrow Pauline dispensationalism. The Holy Scriptures have been given many times which demonstrate the error of the false teaching.

Note how the false teacher changes the words in his post THUS TEACHING a "seducing, lie" from a spirit, a DOCTRINE OF A DEVIL. (1 Tim.4) Paul the apostle NEVER preached the GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD being "at hand" as found in Mark. It was the GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD. (Acts 20) The gospel of the kingdom of God WHICH THE APOSTLES PREACHED did not include the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ, as did Paul's gospel. (Luke 18, 1 Cor.15)

[ June 03, 2005, 02:56 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

prophecynut · Jun 2, 2005

OldRegular · Jun 2, 2005

The Kingdom of God is the KINGDOM OF GOD IS THE KINGDOM OF GOD. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST IS THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST, THE POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION.

Jesus Christ, John, Peter, Paul and all the Apostles preached the same Gospel. Paul tells us [Galatians 1:7-9]: but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. Is anyone one out there going to accuse any of the Apostles of heresy?

There is only one God; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Scripture tells us that those who are saved by the Grace of God are translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son.

Colossians 1:2-20
12. Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13. Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14. In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15. Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17. And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20. And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.[/i]

There is only one God and one Kingdom of God. Those who are the Redeemed by and through the Grace of God are translated from the power of darkness into the Kingdom of Jesus Christ, the Kingdom of God.

carlaimpinge · Jun 2, 2005

Originally posted by OldRegular:
The Kingdom of God is the KINGDOM OF GOD IS THE KINGDOM OF GOD. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST IS THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST, THE POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION.

Jesus Christ, John, Peter, Paul and all the Apostles preached the same Gospel. Paul tells us [Galatians 1:7-9]: but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. Is anyone one out there going to accuse any of the Apostles of heresy?

There is only one God; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Scripture tells us that those who are saved by the Grace of God are translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son.

Colossians 1:2-20
12. Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13. Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14. In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15. Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17. And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20. And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.[/i]

There is only one God and one Kingdom of God. Those who are the Redeemed by and through the Grace of God are translated from the power of darkness into the Kingdom of Jesus Christ, the Kingdom of God.
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It is the GOSPEL of the kingdom of God at hand which is being discussed, NOT THE KINGDOM OF GOD. Paul did not preach it by ANY verse.

No one accuses the APOSTLES of heresy BECAUSE THEY AGREED to Paul's ministry and gospel at Jerusalem in Acts 15.

Paul communicated HIS GOSPEL to the apostles at Jerusalem in Acts 15. Gal.1 was written AFTER Acts 15.

Pauline REVELATION "superceded" all previous teaching. (Gal.2, Eph.3, Rom.11, Heb.2)

[insulting language deleted (most of post)]

[ June 03, 2005, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

OldRegular · Jun 2, 2005

The way some write on this thread it appears that we should be worshipping Paul instead of Jesus Christ!!!!!!!!!!!

carlaimpinge · Jun 2, 2005

Originally posted by OldRegular:
The way some write on this thread it appears that we should be worshipping Paul instead of Jesus Christ!!!!!!!!!!!
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Note how teachers NEVER deal with the texts which are given which contradict their falsity of teaching.

We are to FOLLOW PAUL, who followed the Lord Jesus Christ ACCORDING to the revelation of the mystery. (1 Cor.11, Gal.1, Eph.3, Rom.16)

[ June 03, 2005, 03:08 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

OldRegular · Jun 2, 2005

I may not know the Book but I know its Author. The hatred that fills the posts of some on this Forum puts their knowledge of its Author in question.

Some weeks ago I stated that I would not enter into direct debate with a known dispensationalist because my posts precipitated nothing but rancorous response. In my posts on this thread I have been careful to avoid responding directly to any posts. My posts have consisted primarily of Scripture and my understanding of those Scripture. No Scripture I have posted has been refuted, in fact it has not even been addressed. Instead they have precipitated the same rancorous response I experienced earlier.

I would think that anyone called as a minister of the Gospel would believe it his duty to address from Scripture any errors in those posts. Instead, even though not directed toward anyone, they have been greeted by a litany of scurrilous personal attacks. Such behavior is very very sad but I have no misconceptions about the response to this post.

carlaimpinge · Jun 3, 2005

Originally posted by OldRegular:
I may not know the Book but I know its Author. The hatred that fills the posts of some on this Forum puts their knowledge of its Author in question.

Some weeks ago I stated that I would not enter into direct debate with a known dispensationalist because my posts precipitated nothing but rancorous response. In my posts on this thread I have been careful to avoid responding directly to any posts. My posts have consisted primarily of Scripture and my understanding of those Scripture. No Scripture I have posted has been refuted, in fact it has not even been addressed. Instead they have precipitated the same rancorous response I experienced earlier.

I would think that anyone called as a minister of the Gospel would believe it his duty to address from Scripture any errors in those posts. Instead, even though not directed toward anyone, they have been greeted by a litany of scurrilous personal attacks. Such behavior is very very sad but I have no misconceptions about the response to this post.
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derogatory insults and the questioning of one's salvation are not tolerated.

[ June 03, 2005, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

ituttut · Jun 3, 2005

Originally posted by UZThD:

Originally posted by ituttut:

I’m endeavoring to answer your questions, but you leave my questions to you unanswered. Can you respond to my questions of Quote “Are you Baptist? Were you saved any differently, or baptized for any reason other than to be able to associate with the members in the Baptist community?” Will appreciate this courtesy.

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Bill replies:

Yes, I am a Conservative Baptist.

No, I was not saved differently than are any others. I was saved by grace through faith just as Peter and James and John taught.
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And they were baptized under the gospel of John the Baptist, of “repent and water baptism for remissions of sins”. They received the Power of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, before Damascus Road. They did not have the whole story, or understand salvation by the Grace of God without a work. The Jerusalem church still made sacrifices, and thought the heathen was to be circumcised. This is the reason for Paul going to the Hebrew church to inform it was not necessary for the Gentile to live as the Jew, and vis-à-vis. They all shook hands that the Jerusalem church and churches in Judah would go only to the circumcised, and Paul, just as Christ had told him, would go to the uncircumcised heathen.

I was baptised because

a) our Lord commanded that
b) The apostolic church practiced it
c) Paul baptised and taught it
d) It is a testimony of what my salvation
e) It is an occasion of expressing faith

I do lots of things like praying and church NOT because they save!

I’ll not question your salvation in your faith.
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To answer yours: All I can believe is what the Spirit will allow, and that is Christ spoke face to face with Paul, and Paul was blinded, but Paul remembered what Christ spoke to him that first time.

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Bill replies:

What do you know, except what is recorded, about what Christ spoke to Paul "that first time"?

Acts 22:10, ”And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are “appointed” for thee to do.” Saul/Paul remembered Christ Jesus had spoken to him, and Christ had personally appointed him. Paul would never forget this “commission” bestowed on him. I would place this in equivalence to the appointment of Moses, for the Law became the “Law of Moses”, and it was his law, and gospel, until John the Baptist. Grace became the gospel of Paul, which people do not like to accept, but have no qualms about the Law being Moses Law.

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Who revealed to Paul the gospel he preached? Jesus Christ. This gospel was hidden by God from the beginning – I Cor. 2:7.

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Bill replies:

1 Cor 2:7 does not say that any new Gospel was revealed to Paul!

You a re READING INTO that verse the Gospel! That word is NOT there.

I Cor. 2:7, ”But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory”.

I Tim. 1:16, ”Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.” Paul is the pattern we are to follow, as he is the first, and those after are to take to heart his gospel.

Gal. 3:8, ”And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.”Is this new to you, or did you know this before from reading the Old Testament? The new gospel given him by Christ Jesus, opens up mysteries that were before stated, but not known how this would be accomplished.

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This one Apostle appointed from heaven is the one Apostle to the Gentile, and there is no other.

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Bill replies:

Please prove that John did not address his writings to Gentiles.

The issue I am arguing is not whether Paul had a different field of service but whether Paul taught a different Gospel!

Paul is the only one Christ from heaven appointed to be The Apostle to the Gentile. Can you find otherwise in His Word?

I didn’t say John didn’t “write” to the Gentiles. In fact I said in so many words, that John sounds like Paul for John wrote all of His books probably more than 30 years after the death of Paul. John in His writings now understands this part of the “mind of Christ” that was given to Paul. But before Damascus Road the gospel was to “repent and be baptized for the remission of sins”. So as you take this to mean “water baptism”, then you must admit John and Peter preached a different gospel than did Paul of “believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved”. I really don’t know how else to say it. You either believe Peter and John never preached the “great commission”, or you do. If you do, then that is not the gospel of Paul.

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Acts 15 is undeniable proof of this, understanding Cornelius happened after Damascus Road; James, Peter and the other Apostles say they didn't send the Judaizers from their church to the Gentiles, and agreed with Paul and Barnabas that the Gentile was not to believe as the Jew and be circumcised and be under the law. In other words the Gentile’s and those that come as the Gentile are to listen only to the gospel of Paul.

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Bill replies:

No, the Gentiles are to listen to Paul preach the same Gospel: Jesus died for us, was resurrected for us, and by beliving this we are saved!

As Peter said, "We believe we are saved through GRACE JUST AS ARE THESE." (Acts 15:11).

Yes you are right, but look at how many years have passed since they preached a different gospel. You cannot find any Apostle preaching the gospel of Grace alone before Paul. There has never been from the beginning such a message preached. If you believe differently then can you produce it? It is not in scripture.

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But “water baptism” is not what Paul preaches. Observe the following:

"So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another" (Rom. 12:5).

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one Body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles..." (I Cor. 12:13).

"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek,...for ye are all one in Christ Jesus" (Gal. 3:26-28). This proves your Gal. 3:26-27 is not "water" baptism.

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Bill replies:

IT, these texts refer to water baptism. Your saying that they do not , does not make it so!

Then to you, you believe as the Catholic that water baptism is necessary for salvation. If that is what you believe, then so be it, for as yet you see no baptism being of the Holy Spirit. John the Baptist says there is, and I believe him just I believe Paul, and all of scripture.

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Today, with water of His Word we are spiritually baptized into Christ, who is the head of the Body of both Jew and Greek. If some believe they for some reason must be baptized with water, then so be it, but it will not fit into the gospel of Paul to the Gentile.

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Bill replies:

Yes, WB will fit into the Gospel of Paul. Paul baptized(1 Cor 1:15)

No doubt, for awhile, which was necessary, but the Old was being phased out, and the New being phased in. We can see this in verse 17 as Christ appointed him to preach the gospel, and not baptism.

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Neither do the Prison Epistles forsake the issue of water baptism as shown by Eph 5:26.

Ituttut: Ephesians 5:26 reads, ”That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word.”We teach salvation by the Word of God, and the Word Jesus Christ says He is the living waters. I believe the washing of water by the word cleanses us as He is that living water.

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Bill replies:

Eph 5:26 almost certainly refers to water baptism as:

I go back to Eph. 5:26, ”That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word.” It is His Word that does the washing, not water down here, and it is done “without hands”.

a) Paul no where else calls Christ " waters."
b) The phrase "cleansing by washing" is quite similar to the phrase Paul uses in Acts 22:16, ,"Be baptised (clearly in water) and wash away your sins calling on His Name."

I Cor. 6:11, ”And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.”This agrees with Eph. 5:26 in saying we are justified in the Word the Lord Jesus Christ (that is the Words name), sanctified by the washing of the Word, and by the Holy Spirit this is done, we being sealed.

In Acts 22:13 notice Ananias calls Saul “brother”, so Paul is not Paul here. He is still called “Saul”. Ananias is a Jew as is Saul until God changes his name to that of a Greek, viz. Paul. So in this setting we have two Hebrews out of Jacob. We see in verse 12 Paul says Ananias is a devout man according to the law. Ananias knows nothing of the gospel of grace through faith, just as Paul doesn’t.

Is this Baptism here only symbolic? I don’t think so. The Jews are promised to enter into the kingdom of God, and how are they to do this? They must repent and be baptized for the remission of their sins, believing on the name of Jesus Christ. Not until Christ taught Paul about the “Grace through faith without works”, was there the New gospel to replace the Old gospel. This is the reason Paul can say in I Cor. 1:17 he preaches the gospel, and it doesn’t include water baptism. His message is we come through the blood, washed and sealed, being Once Saved Always Saved.

c) This view that 5:26 refers to WB does NOT mean that WB is salvific. What IS salvific is the accompanying spoken word (the meaning of 'rhema.')

Just as in Acts 22 Paul was to "call on His name," in belief so here in Eph 5:26 the baptizand was to affirm in belief the grace of God's Word of promise.

Therefore, WB is nor salvific, it is accepting and affirming His Word, His Work, which saves.

It (WB) was then to the Jew, but it is not now, as you say.

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Can you agree there is silence from heaven today? What gospel is there in the Bible that says it is for both Jew and Gentile?

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Bill replies:

Rom 1:16, "The Gospel...it is the power of God for the salvation of EVERYONE who believes: first for the Jew, then, for the Gentile."

That is right. You agree that the gospel of Paul in Rom. 1:16 is the gospel for us today. We believe, and God saves, and we know this by reading the gospel of Paul, of which you have just confirmed.

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We can’t get around that fact. Peter turned the Pentecostal church over to James. Peter says Paul was given “wisdom”, meaning the “wisdom” of Christ Jesus from heaven was given to Paul, and we find this in the gospel of Paul.

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Bill replies:

IT, I am NOT saying that Paul did not receive revelation. I am saying that Paul preached salvation by grace through faith in Christ JUST AS JESUS preached in John and JUST AS PETER preached in Acts! Same Gospel!

But you cannot deny they at first, before Paul, preached the “great commission”, which Paul never did. There were two gospels, for there was only one gospel until Paul.

You seem to continue to say that today the Christian must do as the Hebrew church, when God saw the Jew as His own, and include the “great commission” with our grace, through faith. Both Peter and John dropped that salvation that came by faith of the Jew. That is Old, and all things are now New. Our repentance and remission of sins are found only in Him. If we don’t believe this then why not join the Catholic Church for that is their belief – coming under the “great commission”.
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You’re making the mistake of lumping all Dispensationalists together of the Bullinger bent, not that it doesn’t have merit, as do all of the others.

Your claims contradict, and I just above answered your Eph 3 reference.

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Bill replies:

Please get by the former posts of mine and get to answering my points.

Please show me where Eph 3 says Paul received a new Gospel not before preached.

I answered all of your points. It’s now your turn to answer.

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But we must endeavor to understand Paul’s gospel. These disciples {{in Acts 19}}we notice had not received the power of the Holy Spirit that John the Baptist said would come. They had been baptized by John the Baptist’s gospel, and not that of Pentecostal gospel of Peter, as shown in Acts 1:5, ”For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.” I would say these had been baptized before Pentecost, and were not at Pentecost, or possibly afterwards unaware of Pentecost and the significance of it to the Jew.

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Bill replies:

So what?

You not answering again. No rebuttal to truth is there.

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Notice the mention of “twelve” here. The Spirit had this inserted here to let us know these are of Israel, for Israel is represented by the number 12, just as the number 40 denotes divine testing in connection with Israel. We heathen are not associated with these two numbers attached to God’s people.

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Bill replies:

Oh no!! NOT numerology, please! How in the world do you know the mind of the HS in this??

Another attempt to dodge truth. You will find in His Word the truth of these two numbers being applied only to His people.

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Also notice by the laying on of hands did the power of the Holy Ghost come upon the twelve. Here we must all ask a logical question. Was Paul now the only one that could dispense the Power of the Holy Spirit? The Pentecostal church has dropped out of sight. We see in Acts 15 that James is taking over the Pentecostal church. Is Paul now the only one appointed to dispense the Power of the Holy Spirit? In your studies, have you found an answer to this logical question? We also see by the time that Paul arrives in Rome, he no longer has this power.

Paul had to be the last for the Old gospel was fading out, and the New gospel of Christianity was being phased in. Our one spiritual baptism is all we today have, for who among man today can lay hands on man and give him the Power to heal on demand, drink poison, or decayed food without getting sick, move mountains by just speaking the word; cast out devils, speak in tongues? Some claim, but none can do. This “kingdom of God” ability was taken from those of the ‘kingdom people” in the preview of what the kingdom will be like.

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Bill replies:

The prison epistles refer to the laying on of hands! see: 1 Tim 4:14;5:22.

You miss the point as usual. Your mixing miracles of the Power of the Holy Ghost, and laying on of hands as sending forth with their blessings. There was no Power of the Holy Ghost being given by laying on of hands in this verse. You 5:22 reference has nothing to do with the subject. You must just be using a “word” finder in the Bible and not reading content of the whole verse.

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This Power of the Holy Ghost was rebuffed by Israel who would not accept their King. They committed the unpardonable sin, and Jesus had warned them in a parable, Israel could be cut-off.

The Power was then also given to Paul to get the Christian church on it’s feet, up and running, allowing Christ Jesus to form His kingdom, the Body of Christ church. Christ told Paul we (Gentiles) would hear the Word of God – “Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it”, Acts 28:28

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Bill replies:

IT, again I am NOT arguing that Paul preacged a Gospel to Gentiles. What I am arguing is that he preached a different Gospel than the one Jesus preached in John and Peter preached in Acts!

If you think Paul did, then prove it, IT.

It has been in just about every post, but you cannot see it. Here it is again. Does John preach “through faith” in his written gospel? Does Paul preach the “great commission”?

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Verses 14-17 identify those of the churches of Christ. They are of the gospel of Paul, and not that same gospel as preached to the church of God, those of the nation of Israel, the circumcised who church is in Jerusalem and Judah.

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Bill replies:

Again you saying it does not prove it.

It is biblical, and not me talking. If you don’t believe, then give scripture. You are not answering many of my points, with scripture to prove wrong. You have what man believes, which cannot be backed up by scripture.

I define the Gospel as: He gave Himself forour sins." Paul in Gal 1:3-6, says THAT is his Gospel.

I define the Gospel as, "Christ doed for our sins...was buried..was raised... ." Paul says THAT is the Gospel he preached! ! Cor 15.

Now, why don't you try to prove that that Gospel was not preached by Christ and Peter?

I have never come close to saying Jesus didn’t preach that, or Peter, so I believe as you and have nothing to prove.

But you don’t see the problem you have. You fail to understand Jesus said He came only for His own. Jesus did not preach to a Gentile about salvation while on this earth. Peter didn’t either until forced to go to the first and last Gentile he preached to, and that Gentile received the Holy Ghost without the “great commission”. I’ve said before something is New, and it is the gospel of Paul, and Christ Jesus from heaven gave it to him.

If you believe Paul, then you must believe Christ revealed to Paul something that had been hidden from the beginning. If you don’t believe Paul, then just leave out any reference to his writings, and see how far you get in trying to present the Christian faith of the Gentile. You will find out very quickly that there is no Christian faith without the gospel of Paul.

Ever hear of being caught up to meet Jesus in the air? Well just forget about that, for that came by Paul. Every know anything about the Body of Christ? Well just forget about that, for that came by Paul. Ever hear anything about circumcision and baptism without hands? Well just forget about that, for that came by Paul? Ever hear about a Gentile being allowed into the Temple? How about into the Holy of Holies? Well, forget about that, for that came by Paul? Ever hear about……..- it goes on and on. Just take out from Acts 9 through Philemon, and see what you find. The Gentile without hope, and a vague reference by Peter about somebody named Paul who everybody had better understand.

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We all can only believe what the Word reveals to us.

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Bill replies:

That's right! And I am giving you Scripture!!

Where? I answered, and you have no answers

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[Bill had said:] 8) According to Jude 3, the Faith was ONCE delivered...not twice! It does not say that the Faith was first delivered to Peter and then, later, in Paul's imprisonment, it was delivered in a somewhat altered form to Paul.

shall I believe you over Jude? nope!!

IT. had replied: The faith is Jesus Christ, the Word of God. The Jew is saved by the faith of Christ, and we today the Christian Gentile and Jew are saved through the faith of Christ. He was delivered Once for our transgressions.

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Bill replies:

Look IT., you don't even respond to my arguments!

The FAITH was ONCE delivered NOT twice!

I answered agreeing with you, in responding He was delivered Once for our transgressions. The Jew and the Gentile agree on this. You are the one trying to make out like I am alluding to two faiths. Romans 3:30, ” Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.”

Christ Jesus informed Paul of this and this is what the Holy Spirit had Paul write. You are the one arguing with Paul and that Christ is wrong. But you are wrong as this does not teach TWO faiths, but One Faith, which justifies the Jew and the Gentile of faith in Jesus Christ. What is that faith? It is the faith of Jesus Christ that we can be saved, for Christ Jesus had faith in His Father to raise Him from the dead, to return to the Father. It is not how the Jew is saved, or we today, but the One faith of Jesus Christ.

===

(Bill had said) 9) Jesus said that He would build His church on the truth of the confession by Peter (Mt 16:18).

Now, as I understand you, you are saying that it rather was on some new mystery revealed to Paul in prison on which that the church is to be built.

shall I believe you over Jesus? nope!!

(It had replied) But aren’t you refusing to believe the risen Christ that sits beside His father today in Heaven. It is from this position that Christ spoke to Paul, giving Paul His gospel for the Gentile.

We are to believe all of scripture, and not just that which pertains to this earth. ”Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. 17. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 18. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation”, II Corinthians 5:16-18. This is what I teach.

Do you believe our risen Lord Jesus Christ in heaven that gave His life for all, or Jesus the man that came only for His people, that refused Him and exiled Him, and were cut-off? What have we to do with them?

===

Bill replies:

I believe that Jesus keeps His Word and does not contradict Himself!

Neither do I. But Christ could not reveal until its time, the hidden secret in the mysteries of God.

===

(Bill had said: 10) Christ, Himself, said that water baptism was to be part of the discipling process and that statement was qualified by Christ's assurance that while they were discipling He would be with them "unto the end of the age." (Mt 28:20)

He did not say,"Oh, I really mean only until Paul's imprisonment when you can stop teaching them 'whatsoever I have commanded you' and start teaching them 'Paul's Gospel' instead!"

And so, at Pentecost water baptism was part of Peter's message (Acts 2:38).

And Philip baptised too (Acts 8:38).

Without looking deeply into, we can see these scriptures are all before Damascus Road.

And so did Ananias baptize Paul saying (much like Eph 5:26), "Be baptized and wash away your sins calling on the name of the Lord."

Of course, water did not save, it was the calling on the Lord that saved! BUT, the baptism was indicative of the salvific event!

Isn’t Paul a Jew?

So, when Cornelius and co. by receiving the Spirit showed that they were saved, water baptism would naturally follow (Acts 10:47.

(It replied) ]God would not permit Peter to follow through with the gospel to the house of Israel of “repent and be baptized for the remission of sins”. Peter was “bumfuzzled” not believing what had just happened right before his eyes. These received the Holy Ghost, before they were baptized for the remission of sins. What did Peter do after the heathen had received the Holy Ghost. What he was taught to do. He baptized them but left out they must "repent and be of water for their remission of sins". I dare say we all would have done the same thing for that is what we had been taught.

But for the Gentile, it wasn’t necessary, of which Peter did not know. Had the Gentile broke a covenant? No for God never offered to make covenant with them. Had the Gentile refused Messiah, their King, and demanded He be crucified. No for Jesus was not their King, for Jesus is the King of the Jews. The Jew had to “repent and be baptized for the remission of sins under the law of Moses for this “Bride” had gone into “whoredom“ – Ezekiel 16;

===

Bill replies: None of what you say is evidence that WB was not for the Gentiles. Paul baptised Gentiles!

Until it became clear to him to stop.

===

(Bill had said) You, friend Ittutut, say that water baptism is an empty formality.

But should I belive you, or should I believe our Lord Jesus and His servants as Peter, Philip, and Paul?

These servants all came to the knowledge and wisdom of Paul given to him by Christ Jesus from heaven.

If I am wrong, then I BREAK NO COMMAND;IF YOU ARE WRONG YOU DO!

"Go ye , Ittutut,

Go ye , Bill,

teach ALL NATIONS

ALL NATIONS!!!

(not just Jews or pre- Pauline imprisonment folks)

BAPTIZING THEM."

Shall I follow YOUR understanding instead of the COMMAND OF CHRIST?

nope!!

It replied: (Matthew)Go ye therefore teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, (Mark)”and He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. 17. And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; 18. They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.” (Luke)”And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: 47. And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48. And ye are witnesses of these things. 49. And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.”

Is this the gospel of Christ from heaven, and the message of Paul? There are two gospels going on at the same time during the lives of the Apostles. Christian faith, ituttut Galatians 1:11-12

Bill replies: Prove that there are two Gospels.

I have.

Miracles are still wrought, WB is still done, repentance is still preached ALL BY PAUL!

And THAT sinks your ship!
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Of course repentance is preached and so is baptism. They are found in Christ Jesus, for I notice you agree that Jesus did all of the work for we today that believe the Gospel of Paul. All our sins are forgiven, for we have turned to Him, and been baptized into His death coming through the blood, washed, and sealed by the Holy Spirit. Christian faith, ituttut Galatians 1:11-12
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OldRegular · Jun 3, 2005

My posts and the response by Pastor Carlaimpinge. We see in these responses the heart of a truly called minister.

posted May 29, 2005 09:02 PM

Originally posted by OldRegular:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by UZThD:
Hi It.

I really do not see here evidence for your view that Paul started some new thing.
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You hit the nail on the head UZThD, Paul did not start anything new. There is only one Gospel, there has always been only one Gospel, and there will always be only one Gospel:the Power of God unto Salvation. [/QUOTE]

Response posted by carlaimpinge:
I see the unlearned and unstable are still alive and well PUBLISHING "falsehood", CONTRADICTING Pauline testimony of SUBSEQUENT REVELATION. (2 Peter 3)

Paul's gospel IS NOT the gospel of the kingdom, which the 12 preached BEFORE his crucifixion. (Matt.10) They DIDN'T KNOW, UNDERSTAND, OR BELIEVE in the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ BEFORE his resurrection. (Luke 18, 24, John 20) They PREACHED the "gospel" BUT IT WASN'T the one we preach!

THEY LEARNED the gospel of God FROM the Lord Jesus Christ AFTER HIS RESURRECTION. (Luke 24)

They LEARNED Paul's gospel in Acts 15/Gal.2 after he COMMUNICATED it unto them. They PERCEIVED the "grace which was given unto him" by the HOLY SPIRIT. (Eph.3, Rom.15)

Anyone (and I say this with "charity") who reads those verses STATING there is only ONE GOSPEL can't read English and has no business AT ALL trying to EXPOUND "any verse" of scripture to anyone at anytime.

The gospels are DEFINED and they are DIFFERENT from each other by VIRTUE of the words of the Holy Ghost. (1 Cor.2)
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posted May 30, 2005 08:41 AM

Originally posted by carlaimpinge:

Originally posted by OldRegular:
[qb] The Apostle Paul describes the Gospel of Jesus Christ in Romans 1:16 as follows: For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

The Apostle Paul also had some harsh things to say about those who argue that there is more than one Gospel in his letter to the church at Galatia.

Galatians 1:6-9
6. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

I said in an earlier post that there is only one Gospel; the power of God unto salvation, Paul calls it the Gospel of Christ. The reader can judge how many Gospels there are.
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Response posted by carlaimpinge:
There is a CLASSIC EXAMPLE of the "false way" of ANOTHER FALSE TEACHER who circumvents the HOLY SCRIPTURES through his NONRESPONSE. (Psalm 119:104)

Paul's gospel was SUBSEQUENT REVELATION from PRIOR TEACHING. (Gal.1-2)

Yes folks, Paul DID have a lot to say about FALSE TEACHERS who teach ANOTHER GOSPEL "after" his gospel was HISTORICALLY REVEALED TO HIM by the Lord Jesus, AND THEN to the other apostles and prophets by the HOLY SPIRIT! (Eph.3, John 14) That gospel concerned WORKS, while his contained GRACE ALONE. (Gal.2-3, Rom.11)

He ALSO has a lot to say about those who teach false doctrine DUE TO not "rightly dividing the word of truth", who teach CONTRARY and CONTRADICT Pauline SUBSEQUENT REVELATION. (2 Tim.2)
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posted May 30, 2005 06:08 PM

Originally posted by carlaimpinge:

Originally posted by OldRegular:
[qb] Heh! there was another mystery [another gospel] revealed to Joseph Smith sometime in the 1830's or so. [In fact, it was on gold pages in King James English; you can't get any better than that, or can you?] Since that revelation to old Joe is later in time than the mystery supposedly revealed to Paul is it better?
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Response posted by carlaimpinge:
Why you poor soul. You don't know the difference in biblical facts (progressive revelation of truth) and falsehood from a LIAR?

It seems the last time you were corrected by the Book, you got mad at me, whined, then slandered me, and disappeared, vowing never to talk to a dispensationalist again. I think that is how it went.

Your incompetence is showing again. Supposedly revealed?

Paul SAID and WROTE the MYSTERY was REVEALED to him. (Eph.3) Of course, you've got to be able to read it.

Such is the way of bible babblers.
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posted May 30, 2005 09:02 PM

Originally posted by OldRegular:
Jesus Christ and all the Apostles preached only one Gospel. As the Apostle Paul says let him who says otherwise be; well let Scripture [Galatians, Chapter 1] tell you.
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Response posted by carlaimpinge:
Ah, these malicious kids (1 Cor.2-3, 14) who only "blow" hot air for attention while distorting verses used as FALSE PROOFTEXTS.

Brethren, note the "blatant disregard" of the verses which have PREVIOUSLY been given that REFUTE this lie. He ONLY puts forth his "mental dementia", QUOTING a passage by the APOSTLE Paul, who COMMUNICATED his gospel unto the apostles at Jerusalem HISTORICALLY in Acts 15. (Gal.2) The delirious won't touch the text. Galatians 1 was written AFTER Acts 15, WHICH WAS AFTER the apostles PERCEIVED THE GRACE (Eph.3, Rom.15) which was given unto Paul! Their dementia won't let them compare scripture with scripture to find out what Paul said. These disgraceful DISPUTERS of God's words can't teach the Bible, for they can't READ nor do they KNOW or UNDERSTAND plain bible statements.

The Pauline MYSTERY was "subsequent revelation" which ENDED THE PREVIOUS COMMISSIONS of the apostles at Jerusalem. What fool doesn't know that ANYONE who preaches anything EXCEPT Paul's gospel is accursed? The apostles at Jerusalem PERCEIVED Paul's gospel in Gal.2, WHEN he went up to COMMUNICATE it to them.

Only poor, deceived, duds like this false teaching fibber of ONE GOSPEL. The Book messes up their "false way" EVERY TIME. (Matt.3,4,10, Luke 18,24, Mark 16, Acts 2, 20, Rev.14) Four different gospels are found within the chapters.
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OldRegular · Jun 3, 2005

[Part #2} My posts and the response by Pastor Carlaimpinge. We see in these responses the heart of a truly called minister.

posted June 02, 2005 07:23 AM

Originally posted by OldRegular:
I repeat much of that which I have posted before.

In the Gospel according to Mark we are told when the Gospel of Jesus Christ began to be taught.

Mark 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

The Gospel of Jesus Christ was preached when He began His ministry. Now what was that Gospel? Mark tells us in later Scripture:

Mark 1:14, 15
14. Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15. And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

There is obviously no difference between the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the Gospel of the Kingdom of God.

Later in Scripture we read of Paul's rebuke of some in the church at Galatia for teaching a Gospel that he had not taught them.

Galatians 1:6, 7
6. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.

However, after Paul's rebuke of the Galatians we read that in Rome Paul preached the Kingdom of God:

Acts 28:30, 31
30. And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,
31. Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

Some thoughts for consideration.

Jesus Christ preached the Kingdom of God. The Gospel of Mark states that this was the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Was Jesus Christ preaching a different Gospel than Mark said in his introduction? Paul preached the Kingdom of God in Rome. Was Paul preaching a different Gospel in Rome than he preached to the Galatians? The Apostle Paul writes to the church at Rome:

Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Was Paul writing to the church at Rome about a different Gospel than he preached at Rome?

The truth is there is only one Gospel. There has always been only one Gospel, there is only one Gospel now, there will always be only one Gospel, the Gospel of Jesus Christ the power of God unto salvation.
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Response posted by carlaimpinge:
Paul said these false teachers would speak lies in hypocrisy in the latter days. The false belief is taught to overthrow Pauline dispensationalism. The Holy Scriptures have been given many times which demonstrate the error of the false teaching.

Note how the false teacher changes the words in his post THUS TEACHING a "seducing, lie" from a spirit, a DOCTRINE OF A DEVIL. (1 Tim.4) Paul the apostle NEVER preached the GOSPEL OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD being "at hand" as found in Mark. It was the GOSPEL OF THE GRACE OF GOD. (Acts 20) The gospel of the kingdom of God WHICH THE APOSTLES PREACHED did not include the death, burial, and resurrection of the Lord Jesus Christ, as did Paul's gospel. (Luke 18, 1 Cor.15)

Liars are born as well as made IN ORDER to justify their false teachings.
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posted June 02, 2005 11:30 AM

Originally posted by OldRegular:
The Kingdom of God is the KINGDOM OF GOD IS THE KINGDOM OF GOD. The Gospel of Jesus Christ is THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST IS THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST, THE POWER OF GOD UNTO SALVATION.

Jesus Christ, John, Peter, Paul and all the Apostles preached the same Gospel. Paul tells us [Galatians 1:7-9]: but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. Is anyone one out there going to accuse any of the Apostles of heresy?

There is only one God; Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Scripture tells us that those who are saved by the Grace of God are translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son.

Colossians 1:2-20
12. Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
13. Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
14. In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15. Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
16. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17. And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20. And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.[/i]

There is only one God and one Kingdom of God. Those who are the Redeemed by and through the Grace of God are translated from the power of darkness into the Kingdom of Jesus Christ, the Kingdom of God.
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Response posted by carlaimpinge:
Note how false teachers DISTORT the subject. It is the GOSPEL of the kingdom of God at hand which is being discussed, NOT THE KINGDOM OF GOD. Paul did not preach it by ANY verse.

The "of" kills false teachers every time. SUBJECT AND OBJECT is a killer to every heretic. (Hypers, the dispensation OF the grace of God, Jehovah Witnesses, the beginning of the creation OF God, Baptists, the gospel OF Jesus Christ)

Note how false teachers corrupt the scriptures and SLANDERS those who point out their IGNORANCE . No one accuses the APOSTLES of heresy BECAUSE THEY AGREED to Paul's ministry and gospel at Jerusalem in Acts 15.

Paul communicated HIS GOSPEL to the apostles at Jerusalem in Acts 15. Gal.1 was written AFTER Acts 15.

The deceived false teachers can't tell TIME.

And such it is with those who corrupt the words of God.

Pauline REVELATION "superceded" all previous teaching. (Gal.2, Eph.3, Rom.11, Heb.2)
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posted June 02, 2005 01:50 PM

Originally posted by OldRegular:
The way some write on this thread it appears that we should be worshipping Paul instead of Jesus Christ!!!!!!!!!!!
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Response posted by carlaimpinge:
Note how the false teachers NEVER deal with the texts which are given which contradict their falsity of teaching.

We are to FOLLOW PAUL, who followed the Lord Jesus Christ ACCORDING to the revelation of the mystery. (1 Cor.11, Gal.1, Eph.3, Rom.16)

These brutish bible babblers don't KNOW the Book.
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posted June 03, 2005 04:33 AM

Originally posted by OldRegular:
I may not know the Book but I know its Author. The hatred that fills the posts of some on this Forum puts their knowledge of its Author in question.

Some weeks ago I stated that I would not enter into direct debate with a known dispensationalist because my posts precipitated nothing but rancorous response. In my posts on this thread I have been careful to avoid responding directly to any posts. My posts have consisted primarily of Scripture and my understanding of those Scripture. No Scripture I have posted has been refuted, in fact it has not even been addressed. Instead they have precipitated the same rancorous response I experienced earlier.

I would think that anyone called as a minister of the Gospel would believe it his duty to address from Scripture any errors in those posts. Instead, even though not directed toward anyone, they have been greeted by a litany of scurrilous personal attacks. Such behavior is very very sad but I have no misconceptions about the response to this post.
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Response posted by carlaimpinge:
Note the "nice way" the NICE MAN tells people that they are not saved, while judging their heart. He thinks that makes him the better person. Pointing out the ERRORS of false teachers and FALSIFICATION of facts of scripture to their dismay IS NOT HATRED. It is "identification" of FALSE TEACHING and TEACHERS as PRACTICED by Paul. He NAMED them and THEIR BELIEFS. (2 Tim.2)

In this man's posts, he has been careful to AVOID, EVADE, and CONTRADICT every verse of scripture which was presented in response to his false teachings. He "ludicrously" STATES that that his scriptures HAVE NOT EVEN BEEN ADDRESSED.

One only has to read the posts in response to BEHOLD his lie. The plain fact of the matter is THE PIOUS GENTLEMAN, the one who judges the salvation of others, is the person of whom he speaks.

The "malicious" fabricator of lying treachery AGAIN states his posts were not addressed to anyone. We'll see whether that fact is TRUE at the judgment. (1 Cor.4, Rom.2)

Ministers of the gospel are called to MARK, and REBUKE "liars" such as ANYONE who teaches CONTRARY to Pauline doctrine (Titus 1, 2 Tim.2-4), along with IDENTIFYING the "manner and way" of false teachers. (Good words and fair speeches DECEIVE the hearts of the simple. Rom.16)

Isn't that the MANNER of "the pious gentleman" who PROFESSES Christ? HERETICS PROFESS BELIEF IN CHRIST WHILE TEACHING FALSE DOCTRINE. (See Acts 15)

So much for smooth, tickling words. (2 Tim.4) When you can't resist the truth, one has to TURN to other means to DENY it, like attacking the person WITHOUT mentioning him by name, speaking in the "general" sense while PARTICULARLY addressing one (a known minister), etc. Ah, the games people play!
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UZThD · Jun 3, 2005

Originally posted by ituttut:

[/qb]And

they were baptized under the gospel of John the Baptist, of “repent and water baptism for remissions of sins”.

===

Bill replies:

So what? Jesus was baptised by John. I don't know that Peter was ever baptised.

===

They received the Power of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, before Damascus Road.

===
Bill replies:

yes. Your chronology is correct. But you have yet tp show that the Damascus Road changed the Gospel. It does not say that in Acts 9.

===

They did not have the whole story, or understand salvation by the Grace of God without a work.

===

Bill replies:

Of course they did understood salvation by grace. Show me one text in Acts 1-8 which says that salvation is not by grace but is by works.

===

The Jerusalem church still made sacrifices, and thought the heathen was to be circumcised.

===
Bill replies:

Show me one text in Acts 1-8 that says the Jer church did sacrifice and req Gentiles to be circumcised.

===

Acts 22:10, ”And I said, What shall I do, Lord? And the Lord said unto me, Arise, and go into Damascus; and there it shall be told thee of all things which are “appointed” for thee to do.” Saul/Paul remembered Christ Jesus had spoken to him, and Christ had personally appointed him. Paul would never forget this “commission” bestowed on him.

===

Bill replies:

I agree that in Acts 9 Paul was commissioned to go to the Gentiles. Please show me where in Acts 9 it says that he was to go with a different Gospel.

===

I would place this in equivalence to the appointment of Moses, for the Law became the “Law of Moses”, and it was his law, and gospel, until John the Baptist. Grace became the gospel of Paul, which people do not like to accept, but have no qualms about the Law being Moses Law.

===

Bill replies:

Grace came by Christ, not by Paul (Jo 1:17). John does not mention Paul at all--only Moses as giver of Law and Christ as Giver of grace.

===

Who revealed to Paul the gospel he preached? Jesus Christ. This gospel was hidden by God from the beginning – I Cor. 2:7.

===
Bill replies:

No. It was not hidden as in "unknown". Jesus spoke of it in Jo 3:16. And the OT did before Him.

===

I Cor. 2:7, ”But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory”.

I Tim. 1:16, ”Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.” Paul is the pattern we are to follow, as he is the first, and those after are to take to heart his gospel.

Gal. 3:8, ”And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.”Is this new to you, or did you know this before from reading the Old Testament? The new gospel given him by Christ Jesus, opens up mysteries that were before stated, but not known how this would be accomplished.

===

Bill replies:

Please look again at Gal . How is it that a NEW thing is revealed to Paul if it was revealed hundreds of years before to Abraham?

NONE of those texts say that Paul was given a new Gospel. It concerns WHERE not WHAT.

===

I didn’t say John didn’t “write” to the Gentiles. In fact I said in so many words, that John sounds like Paul for John wrote all of His books probably more than 30 years after the death of Paul. John in His writings now understands this part of the “mind of Christ” that was given to Paul.

===

Bill replies: Are you suggesting that John put words in the mouth of Christ?

Please , please show me JUST ONE part of what Paul says is his GOSPEL that Jesus in John does not teach---JUST ONE!

===

But before Damascus Road the gospel was to “repent and be baptized for the remission of sins”. So as you take this to mean “water baptism”, then you must admit John and Peter preached a different gospel than did Paul of “believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved”. I really don’t know how else to say it. You either believe Peter and John never preached the “great commission”, or you do. If you do, then that is not the gospel of Paul.

===

Bill replies:

I do say that Peter preached the Great Commission which included the Gentiles (ethnos) . And I agree that Peter baptised. I disagree that if Peter baptised that means that Peter said that baptism saves. It is the faith expressed by the baptizand which is salvific just as Paul teaches in Gal 3:26,27.

---
Acts 15 is undeniable proof of this, understanding Cornelius happened after Damascus Road; James, Peter and the other Apostles say they didn't send the Judaizers from their church to the Gentiles, and agreed with Paul and Barnabas that the Gentile was not to believe as the Jew and be circumcised and be under the law. In other words the Gentile’s and those that come as the Gentile are to listen only to the gospel of Paul.

===

Bill replies:

Please show me where in Acts 15 that Peter and James base their opinion on Paul ; it rather says they based it on the OT and on Peter's experience---NOT on the Damascene Rd!

===.

Yes you are right, but look at how many years have passed since they preached a different gospel.

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Bill replies:

They did not preach a different Gospel.

===

You cannot find any Apostle preaching the gospel of Grace alone before Paul. There has never been from the beginning such a message preached. If you believe differently then can you produce it? It is not in scripture.

===

Bill replies:

I already provided texts which show that Paul both required repentance (Acts 26:20 ) and baptised (Acts 19:1-7)).

===

But “water baptism” is not what Paul preaches. Observe the following:

"So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another" (Rom. 12:5).

"For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one Body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles..." (I Cor. 12:13).

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Bill replies:

What is your proof that 12:13 does not have water as its referent?

===

"For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek,...for ye are all one in Christ Jesus" (Gal. 3:26-28). This proves your Gal. 3:26-27 is not "water" baptism.

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Bill replies:

No, it does not. "Baptize" is chiastic with faith in Gal 3.

That is what you are not getting. "Repentance" or "Faith" or "Calling on the Lord" or "water baptism" all refer to expressing faith. In Acts and elsewhere the presence of one assumes the others.

===

[/qb]Then to you, you believe as the Catholic that water baptism is necessary for salvation. If that is what you believe, then so be it,

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Bill replies:

We are just around in circles. I have all along made clear that IMO faith saves. But that does not mean we should not baptize.

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Bill replies:

Yes, WB will fit into the Gospel of Paul. Paul baptized(1 Cor 1:15)

[/qb][/qb]No doubt, for awhile, which was necessary, but the Old was being phased out, and the New being phased in. We can see this in verse 17 as Christ appointed him to preach the gospel, and not baptism.

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Bill replies:

If the Lord did not ask Paul to baptise, then why did he? If the Lord on the Damascene Rd. told Paul that baptism was not necessary , then why did Paul allow Ananias to bap him when Ananias said, "Be bap and wash away your sins"? (Acts 22).

===

Ituttut: Ephesians 5:26 reads, ”That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word.”We teach salvation by the Word of God, and the Word Jesus Christ says He is the living waters. I believe the washing of water by the word cleanses us as He is that living water.

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Bill replies.

Then why does Eph 5:26 like so much like Acts 22:16? And where does Paul ever call Christ "Living Waters"? In fact is Christ ever called that anywhere?

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I Cor. 6:11, ”And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.”This agrees with Eph. 5:26 in saying we are justified in the Word the Lord Jesus Christ (that is the Words name), sanctified by the washing of the Word, and by the Holy Spirit this is done, we being sealed.

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Bill replies:

Does 6:11 say, "by the washing of the Word"? Where?

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In Acts 22:13 notice Ananias calls Saul “brother”, so Paul is not Paul here. He is still called “Saul”.

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Bill replies:

Was Paul Saul on the Road too?

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Ananias is a Jew as is Saul until God changes his name to that of a Greek, viz. Paul. So in this setting we have two Hebrews out of Jacob. We see in verse 12 Paul says Ananias is a devout man according to the law. Ananias knows nothing of the gospel of grace through faith, just as Paul doesn’t.

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Bill replies:

I thought you were saying that on the Road Paul got the Gospel of grace. If he did not, then when did he? BUT, IF he got it on the Road, then , why was bap?

===
Not until Christ taught Paul about the “Grace through faith without works”, was there the New gospel to replace the Old gospel.

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Bill replies:

Then do you think Christ meant in Jo 3:16?

===

[/qb][/qb]That is right. You agree that the gospel of Paul in Rom. 1:16 is the gospel for us today. We believe, and God saves, and we know this by reading the gospel of Paul, of which you have just confirmed.

===

Bill replies:

I agree that there is just one Gospel.

===

[/qb]But you cannot deny they at first, before Paul, preached the “great commission”, which Paul never did. There were two gospels, for there was only one gospel until Paul.

===

Bill replies:

No, from the Great Commission onward there was only one Gospel. The Great commision in Mt 28 is not a Gospel of works,

===

Your claims contradict, and I just above answered your Eph 3 reference.

===

Bill replies:

Please prove by exegetics of Eph 3:2-6 that Paul preached a different Gospel.

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===

Bill replies:

Oh no!! NOT numerology, please! How in the world do you know the mind of the HS in this??

===
Another attempt to dodge truth. You will find in His Word the truth of these two numbers being applied only to His people.

===

Bill replies:

ITtutut, please don't start accusing me of attempting to dodge truth. If I show you 20 good and scholarly men who not think that because in Acts 19 it says "about 12" that this means anything but the approximate number, do you think that thesew, like i< are truth dodgers just because we disagree with you?

===

You miss the point as usual... Your mixing miracles of the Power of the Holy Ghost, and laying on of hands as sending forth with their blessings. There was no Power of the Holy Ghost being given by laying on of hands.......you must just be using a “word” finder in the Bible and not reading content of the whole verse.

===

Bill replies:

Again, I resent your attitude.

Please show that 1 Tim 4:14 does not refer to a spiritual gift received by the laying on of hands..

===

It is biblical, and not me talking. If you don’t believe, then give scripture.

===

Bill replies:

OK. My Scripture is the words of Jesus which He spoke before His death as recorded in John.

Please RESPOND TO THIS: show me where any thing which Paul says is his GOSPEL or his MYSTERY is taught taught by Jesus in John.

The issue is NOT when John wrote ; the issue is did Jesus say these things or is John making that up to match Paul?

[ June 03, 2005, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: UZThD ]
Click to expand...

UZThD · Jun 3, 2005

I meant: show me where anything which Paul ACTUALLY SAYS (not which you just assume) is his GOSPEL or his MYSTERY which is NOT, NOT also taught by Jesus in John.

PLEASE, PLEASE do this in your very next post. I don't think you can!

And IMO, John does not put words in Jesus' mouth to change what Jesus actually said ON EARTH to match what Paul said. That, I think, is denying the veracity of Scripture!

thanks,

Bill

carlaimpinge · Jun 3, 2005

Old Reg,

Thanks for demonstrating AGAIN the "heart" of this TRULY CALLED pastor (for over thirty years) WHO FOLLOWS the Pauline MANNER concerning false teachers, while EXPOSITING THE VERSES which "overturn" their heresies. They REALLY "rebuke" your falsity and distortion. No wonder you are such a whiner about being IDENTIFIED as the biblical illiterate and ignoramus that you have presented yourself to be time and time again on thread after thread.

Snide and malicious snippets (said nicely and in "feigned" charity, of course) don't bother me. The majority of the posters on this board sling them when they get ready.

Pastor Carlaimpinge (T.C.) Truly Called

UZThD · Jun 3, 2005

OldRegular · Jun 3, 2005

Originally posted by carlaimpinge:
Old Reg,

Thanks for demonstrating AGAIN the "heart" of this TRULY CALLED pastor (for over thirty years) WHO FOLLOWS the Pauline MANNER concerning false teachers, while EXPOSITING THE VERSES which "overturn" their heresies. They REALLY "rebuke" your falsity and distortion. No wonder you are such a whiner about being IDENTIFIED as the biblical illiterate and ignoramus that you have presented yourself to be time and time again on thread after thread.

Snide and malicious snippets (said nicely and in "feigned" charity, of course) don't bother me. The majority of the posters on this board sling them when they get ready.

Pastor Carlaimpinge (T.C.) Truly Called
Click to expand...

Carla

Rave on! Rave ON! RAVE ON! RAVE ON! You exposed nothing except your own fantastic fantasies!

Acts 28:30, 31
30. And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,
31. Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.

rsr · Jun 3, 2005

OK, there has been enough name calling.

Please keep it civil and cut out the personal attacks. This horse seems to be to be dead already.

rsr

carlaimpinge · Jun 3, 2005

Originally posted by OldRegular:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by carlaimpinge:
Old Reg,

Thanks for demonstrating AGAIN the "heart" of this TRULY CALLED pastor (for over thirty years) WHO FOLLOWS the Pauline MANNER concerning false teachers, while EXPOSITING THE VERSES which "overturn" their heresies. They REALLY "rebuke" your falsity and distortion. No wonder you are such a whiner about being IDENTIFIED as the biblical illiterate and ignoramus that you have presented yourself to be time and time again on thread after thread.

Snide and malicious snippets (said nicely and in "feigned" charity, of course) don't bother me. The majority of the posters on this board sling them when they get ready.

Pastor Carlaimpinge (T.C.) Truly Called
Click to expand...

Carla

Rave on! Rave ON! RAVE ON! RAVE ON! You exposed nothing except your own fantastic fantasies!

Acts 28:30, 31
30. And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,
31. Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him. [/QUOTE]That's right brother. I'm GOING to rave on WITH THE SCRIPTURES which DEMONSTRATE your false teaching as PAUL DISPUTED with the "false brethren" in Acts 15.

Folks, LOOK AT THE STATEMENT.

It doesn't STATE Paul was preaching the GOSPEL of the kingdom. It SAYS he was preaching the kingdom of God. He PREACHED the gospel of the grace of God. (Acts 20) NOTE THAT HIS PREACHING OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS CONTAINED IN THE TEXT, "along" with the IDENTIFICATION of the gospel which he preached. (GRACE OF GOD)

Paul didn't preach the KINGDOM was "at hand" AS the John the Baptist, the Lord Jesus, and the 12 apostles. (Mark 1)

Those are SCRIPTURES which tell WHICH GOSPEL that they preached, not "fantasies".

Anything from ANYONE who says differently is FALSEHOOD.

ituttut · Jun 3, 2005

Originally posted by HankD:
Personally, I'm not sure what the problem is here.

Hello HankD. Perhaps I may not be included in the “problem” you see, but I’m in the discussion, so I’m probably part of the problem, even if you haven’t read my post. Also, you will notice I’m a little behind as I am on page 9.

Carl has used the phrase "progressive revelation" at least once in this thread.

From a singular revelation to the final capstone.

From Genesis 1 (The Seed of the woman) to Isaiah 53 (Man of sorrows) to Revelation (The Alpha and The Omega), the "good news" is all about the salvation of mankind through faith in the death, burial and resurrection of the second Person of the Trinity (veiled and shrouded in mystery at first). From beginning to end, it's all about Him.

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

Beginning: Genesis.
End: Revelation.

You state “I'm not sure what the problem is here.” I believe you have just identified the problem that some have with the Word of God. God is a God of division, which His Word tells us from the very beginning. Every Christian I know freely uses the gospel of Paul, but then the majority will say, everything is just as was from beginning to end.

From your post is:
Beginning: Genesis
End: Revelation

But if you will look in between your scriptures above, you have inserted the gospel of Paul?? Do you see what I am getting at. Why would you use the gospel of Paul that establishes us according to the mystery that was evidently hidden from the beginning? Why insert anything between the beginning and the end?

It seems to me something happened between the beginning and the ending. You also believe this for you by instinct inserted the gospel of Paul between the beginning and the end. You may not understand it but you have shown you believe the dispensational gospel that Christ gave to His heavenly Apostle Paul. This is why you as a Baptist, believe you are Once Saved Always Saved.

Take from scripture Paul beginning at Damascus Road and you has a beginning and an ending just as you say. But what of the Gentile? What of salvation through faith? This Truth unknown since the beginning cannot be seen without Christ speaking to Saul/Paul on Damascus Road. You will not find salvation Through Faith, until after Christ speaks personally to my Apostle Paul.

Praise God that He didn’t forget we Gentiles, for we would have all wound up, if we were lucky, coming as a proselyte to the Jewish faith, serving them forever, while they served their God forever. But now we can enter into the Temple as sons, having access even to the Holy of Holies. This was unheard of. It was unbelievable. But nothing is impossible for God, for He has saved such a heathen Gentile dog such as me. I have to pinch myself ever so often, as He didn’t have to do it for me, for He first came only for His own.

From the "good news" promise to Adam and Eve, to Abraham, to Israel, and finally to all the nations, directly or indirectly, it's all about HIM and His salvation fully revealed in these "last days" through Jesus Christ and His apostles.

And it's not over yet.
We shall yet share in His resurrection.

But is what you say scriptural, knowing all of this from the beginning? I say it was impossible for God did not reveal all from the beginning. From which Apostle did you learn that the Gentile would be in the Temple? Where in His Word did you gain this information? From Jesus on earth, or Christ Jesus from heaven? There is a gospel from the beginning that leads to God creating His own race of People for Himself. He made Himself a nation. Who are these people? Are they not the physical seed of Abraham? Didn’t Jesus say He came only for His own?

Again take out Paul and what do you have? We dogs getting crumbs from the table as our masters do to us as they will, and all is the same from the beginning to God’s purpose of caring for only His People. But that was not God’s purpose. He had a secret. And we today know what it is, for we know we are saved, both Jew and Gentile, and that comes by Paul's gospel given to Him by Christ Jesus in heaven.

Was there a change? If so what was that change? Where did it happen? Why did it happen? When did it happen? Who was involved in this happening? How did it come about?

We need to be Berean in our study of the Word. We cannot deviate from the five (5) W’s, and the How of it, for when we do we will believe the tradition of man.

1 Corinthians 15
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

...Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
Click to expand...

Here is Paul again, between the beginning and the end. Do you think you could have figured out verse 22 without the knowledge, and wisdom of Paul? What about verse 23? Verse 26? Christian faith, ituttut Galatians 1:11-12

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