Lordship Salvation?

[Hope of Glory]

You implied that. OK, is He only the "King of the ages"?

He is the king of the ages. But, he is not king only of the ages.

The two are not exclusive of one another.

He is king of all the ages, but from the context, he is the king of the ages that affect humans on the earth.

Jesus is deity. He will one day be king of kings and lord of lords. He will rule for 1,000 years. Then, he will hand the reins back over to the father.

He is still deity.

He is king now, even though he's not ruling yet. The two ideas are not mutually exclusive.

Satan is god of this age. This does not negate that God is King. Satan's in control, by the authority of the Father. Yet, the Son is still deity. Always has been, always will be.

Two opposing ideas are not mutually exclusive, unless they are contradictory.

Another example is justification. We are justified once and for all by the death of Jesus on the cross.

Yet, we are still told to cause ourselves to be justified throughout Scriptures. (Usually translated as "be righteous".)

Is there a contradiction? Not at all. Both can be true, as long as they dont' contradict.

Are we saved forever, or are we saved for the age to come?

 

[Lacy Evans]

Matthew 19:16 says, "And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?"

Stop and think. During Jesus' time on earth, was premillennialism doctrine existed in that time? Did ever a rich man hear premillennialism doctrine before he asked Christ?

No question, The rich man understoods 'eternal' means forever without end, even, he believed there is life beyond death.

He was not think of 1000 years, because premillennialism was not yet existed in his time. He only asked Christ what shall he do to have eternal life, which speak of salvation.

Whether or not he knew the specific number (1000, 1002. 5,000, one million) is not relevant. (It was explained clearly later, by John and Peter) He was asking about aionios/eternal/age-lasting life. This is born out in either language.


The man was already saved. here is the evidence.

• (Mark 10:18 -He knew and acknowleged who Jesus was)
• (Mark 10:21 - Jesus loved him. There's one for you Calvanists.)
• (Mark 10:21 - Christ instructed him to do works in order to inherit this "eternal life. He did not tell him to believe in him like he did the woman at the well, ")
• (Mark 10:14, 23, 24, 25 - The context is not salvation in the eternal age, it is the Kingdom age.)

Christ told him, if he wants to follow him, then he would have to giving up everything what he possessed them, give all them to the poor, then come and to follow Christ. Christ tested on him, because he knew man is rich, and not willing to give up everything, so, therefore hard for him to enter eternal life just like as entering into the narrow road of Matt. 7:13-14.

So when you go soul winning, you tell people to give up all their possessions and give them to the poor in order to be saved? Have you done that? Even Paul had some books and a coat that he wanted back.

Is that the Gospel? Jesus died on a cross so that you might be able to sell all your possessions and give them to the poor and therefore be saved if you didn't lose your salvation later?

If that's the Christian message, I'm converting to Judiasm and waiting for Messiah!

lacy

 

[Hope of Glory]

Not all who believe are disciples.

Not all who are disciples were apostles.

Not all who were apostles went into the garden with the Lord.

Not all who went into the garden, went all the way with him.

All who believe are saved.

All who are disciples are saved, plus they follow.

Etc.

Oh, and not all who believe will continue believing. The present tense implies that you can stop believing. And, in order to stop believing, you have to really, really, really, TRULY believe. The only real discussion is what does it cost you if you stop believing.

 

[J. Jump]

Who has ever stopped believing? I don't even understand that concept.

You are telling me that you have never heard of someone or an example of someone that said they used to be a Christian and now they are not. Never?

I have heard plenty of people say they used to believe and now they don't. So I guess in your book they are perishing now huh?

 

[Lacy Evans]

Hey all!

I just wanted to say, before they lock this 30-pager down, that this has been very fun.

I appreciate the way everyone has treated me as a brother (Or in several cases a sister) in Christ.

I have never seen a ME thread go 30 pages and remain this cordial. God bless.

If anyone wants to say the same thing over and over some more, I'll be there on the front row with my hand raised, doing my best Arnold Horshak, "Ooooh! Oooooh! Oooh!"

See ya on the next eternal thread.

BroLacy

 

[npetreley]

So, are you saying it's unwise to believe God when he said "Believe on the Lord Jesus and you will be saved?"

How many other times do you think we should doubt God?

Every time. After all, words don't meant what they mean. They mean whatever we want them to mean. All we have to do is trace the etymology until we get a meaning we like.

 

[Amy.G]

Hey all!

I just wanted to say, before they lock this 30-pager down, that this has been very fun.

I appreciate the way everyone has treated me as a brother (Or in several cases a sister) in Christ.

I have never seen a ME thread go 30 pages and remain this cordial. God bless.

If anyone wants to say the same thing over and over some more, I'll be there on the front row with my hand raised, doing my best Arnold Horshak, "Ooooh! Oooooh! Oooh!"

See ya on the next eternal thread.

BroLacy

Excellent post bro/sister Lacy. :laugh: Yea, I know you're a he!

I hope we are all friends in spite of our "eternal" differences. :wavey:

:1_grouphug:

 

[webdog]

I hope we are all friends in spite of our "eternal" differences. :wavey:

...after all, it's not forever

 

[npetreley]

...after all, it's not forever

Well, any time with the kingdom salvation folks will feel like forever.

 

[Amy.G]

...after all, it's not forever

It's 1000 years at least! :laugh:

Since we're not shut down yet, I have a question about this "not believing anymore" stuff. Am I the only one who has a problem with this? I don't understand how you can stop believing. You either believe or you don't. I'm not talking about the belief that the demons have..head knowledge. I'm talking about the kind of belief that it takes to be saved. How do you stop that?

I know (believe) my name is Amy. How can I stop believing that?

 

[Amy.G]

Well, any time with the kingdom salvation folks will feel like forever.

You bad. :laugh:

 

[npetreley]

It's 1000 years at least! :laugh:

Since we're not shut down yet, I have a question about this "not believing anymore" stuff. Am I the only one who has a problem with this? I don't understand how you can stop believing. You either believe or you don't. I'm not talking about the belief that the demons have..head knowledge. I'm talking about the kind of belief that it takes to be saved. How do you stop that?

I know (believe) my name is Amy. How can I stop believing that?

Okay, okay, follow me on this.

Here's the etymology of "believe".

O.E. belyfan, earlier geleafa (Mercian), gelefa (Northumbrian), gelyfan (W.Saxon) "believe," from P.Gmc. *ga-laubjan "hold dear, love," from PIE base *leubh- "to like, desire" (see love). Spelling beleeve is common till 17c.; then altered perhaps by influence of relieve. As a synonym for "Christian," believer is attested from 1549. To believe on instead of in was more common in 16c. but now is a peculiarity of theology; believe of also sometimes was used in 17c.

As you can see, "believe" once meant "to like, desire". As we all know, you can like things like circus peanuts when you're little, and then hate them when you get older. So this proves the "believe" can be something you like to do one minute, but don't like to do the next.

In addition, free-willers say that you can make yourself believe by the power of your will. Think about what happens now, when you combine "make" with "believe". You get "make-believe", which is pretending. So "believe" can also mean "pretending", which means you only pretend to believe.

Did you get all that?

Tomorrow I'll give you lesson two in Kingdom Salvation reasoning.

 

[Amy.G]

Okay, okay, follow me on this.

Here's the etymology of "believe".

O.E. belyfan, earlier geleafa (Mercian), gelefa (Northumbrian), gelyfan (W.Saxon) "believe," from P.Gmc. *ga-laubjan "hold dear, love," from PIE base *leubh- "to like, desire" (see love). Spelling beleeve is common till 17c.; then altered perhaps by influence of relieve. As a synonym for "Christian," believer is attested from 1549. To believe on instead of in was more common in 16c. but now is a peculiarity of theology; believe of also sometimes was used in 17c.

As you can see, "believe" once meant "to like, desire". As we all know, you can like things like circus peanuts when you're little, and then hate them when you get older. So this proves the "believe" can be something you like to do one minute, but don't like to do the next.

In addition, free-willers say that you can make yourself believe by the power of your will. Think about what happens now, when you combine "make" with "believe". You get "make-believe", which is pretending. So "believe" can also mean "pretending", which means you only pretend to believe.

Did you get all that?

Tomorrow I'll give you lesson two in Kingdom Salvation reasoning.

I think I just ruptured my semantical domain.

 

[npetreley]

I think I just ruptured my semantical domain.

:laugh: That's the best line I've seen all day. :thumbs:

 

[Hope of Glory]

It's 1000 years at least! :laugh:

Since we're not shut down yet, I have a question about this "not believing anymore" stuff. Am I the only one who has a problem with this? I don't understand how you can stop believing. You either believe or you don't. /quote]

That's the "believe" that's used in Acts 16:31. Believe [aorist; punctiliar action; mental assent] on the Lord Jesus and you will [indicative; it will happen, no matter what] be saved.

If you're believing in the present tense, and you stop believing, guess what? You've believed in the aorist tense.

Let me ask you this: Did you believe in Santa Clause as a child? (Or anything else that you no longer believe.)

 

[Amy.G]

It's 1000 years at least! :laugh:

Since we're not shut down yet, I have a question about this "not believing anymore" stuff. Am I the only one who has a problem with this? I don't understand how you can stop believing. You either believe or you don't. /quote]

That's the "believe" that's used in Acts 16:31. Believe [aorist; punctiliar action; mental assent] on the Lord Jesus and you will [indicative; it will happen, no matter what] be saved.

If you're believing in the present tense, and you stop believing, guess what? You've believed in the aorist tense.

Do you think the jailer knew they were speaking in the aorist, punctiliar action?
Jailer: "excuse me Paul, are you using "believe" in the punctiliar action? I need to know so that I can make my decision."

Let me ask you this: Did you believe in Santa Clause as a child? (Or anything else that you no longer believe)

Why, yes I did. But later I found out that Santa Clause is a big LIE!

When I find out that God does not exist, I will stop believing in Him.

 

[npetreley]

When I find out that God does not exist, I will stop believing in Him.

That will never happen. In other words, give it about 1,000 years.

 

[J. Jump]

Why, yes I did. But later I found out that Santa Clause is a big LIE!

And there you have answered your own question. You once believed in something you thought was real. Then you stopped believing in Santa. There are some folks that have believed and have simply stopped. It doesn't matter that you don't understand it. I don't even understand it, but the fact is they stopped believing.

Now the question is did those folks lose their salvation because they stopped believing or not? By your definition and interpretation of John 3:16 you would have to say yes. Or you would have to say they never believed in the first place, which the the Bible never uses such langauge.

 

[Amy.G]

And there you have answered your own question. You once believed in something you thought was real. Then you stopped believing in Santa. There are some folks that have believed and have simply stopped. It doesn't matter that you don't understand it. I don't even understand it, but the fact is they stopped believing.

The thing you are missing is that santa is NOT real. God IS. It's one thing to stop believing when you discover that what you believed in is a lie. It's quite another to stop believing in something (or someone in this case) when it has never been proven to be a lie. Would you ever stop believing in gravity? Only if it were proven to you that it does not really exist.

Now the question is did those folks lose their salvation because they stopped believing or not? By your definition and interpretation of John 3:16 you would have to say yes. Or you would have to say they never believed in the first place, which the the Bible never uses such langauge

I have yet to see in John 3:16 or anywhere else in scripture for that matter where someone stopped believing. Who are you talking about? Do you have an example?

I would have to say they (whoever they are, if they exist at all) never believed in the saving, receiving the Holy Spirit sense. I was taught that there is only 18 inches between heaven and hell, the distantace between the head and the heart. You can believe with your head or believe with your heart. Head believers are not saved.

 

[J. Jump]

The thing you are missing is that santa is NOT real.

I completely got that. And to these people that stopped believing God isn't real either. It doesn't matter that you and I know differently. They don't believe in God anymore just like you stopped believing in Santa.

It's one thing to stop believing when you discover that what you believed in is a lie. It's quite another to stop believing in something (or someone in this case) when it has never been proven to be a lie.

That's just it. You can't prove to them that God is any more real than Santa Claus.

You are trying to justify based on whether you can understand or not. Your understanding or lack thereof is pointless. There are people that have believed that don't believe anymore. That's just the facts of the matter.

Would you ever stop believing in gravity?

Again what you and I believe or not is immaterial in this case. It's what others have believed and no do not believe.

I have yet to see in John 3:16 or anywhere else in scripture for that matter where someone stopped believing. Who are you talking about? Do you have an example?

Yes I have heard of people. I've already said that.

I would have to say they (whoever they are, if they exist at all) never believed in the saving, receiving the Holy Spirit sense. I was taught that there is only 18 inches between heaven and hell, the distantace between the head and the heart. You can believe with your head or believe with your heart. Head believers are not saved.

Well this is the typical "church" answer, but it's just not supported by Scripture.

The only thing you have to believe is in the substitutionary death and shed blood of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God, Who died and shed His blood on your behalf a sinner. Once you believe (acknowledge) that you are saved. That's what the Bible says.

So again you are either going to have to admit that eternal salvation really isn't secure or you are going to have to admit that John 3:16 doesn't mean what you think it means.

Or you can continue to stick your head in the sand and act like the head/heart thing is Scriptural when it's not. By the way do you have any Scripture where is says you have to believe with your heart and not your head. And how do you believe with your heart and not your head?