Lordship Salvation?

[Faith alone]

TW, the typical Reformed position to this issue is that if someone has genuinely believed, then he WILL endure to the end, both in his faith and in doing good works...

This is the basic premise of Lordship salvation, although there may be an added up front commitment added by some as LM has pointed out. But basically it is saying that anyone that does not confess Christ as Lord and allow Him to be Lord is unsaved.

This is back-loaded works-based salvation that will always keep a believer down and never allow them to grow, because they will always be worried if they are doing the right thing and if they are doing enough of the right thing.

They say that anyone who is not a disciple can not be eternally saved.

It's just wrong.

Agreed. I just shared it because that position does not say that eternal faith is required, perse, but that genuine faith will persevere. I'd like to know the scriptural basis for that.

Thx,

FA

 

[pinoybaptist]

Yes, that would be different. Do you think also that a believer can stop believing? One who does not a physiological problem? One who is of sound mind?

FWIW, I don't.
I believe that one can rebel, can throw tantrums, shout to the high heavens he's calling it quits, no more, no more church, no more Jesus, no more salvation, no more praying, no more faith, no more choir practice, no more devotions, no more 'believe', no more Bible, pastor, don't visit with me anymore, my door is closed to all church members, no more, no more, no more. I quit !!!

I believe from that point on he can go to the pig sty and wallow in the filth along with the swine.

But when push comes to shove, really, really comes to shove, it's back to the arms of God he goes.

I know. VOE.

I think of this when I see a dog being walked by its master on a stretchable leash. The leash will only go so far, and the master pulls back.

 

[Faith alone]

Let me share a testimony...

About 5 or 6 years ago my brother-in-law's dad got saved and (I'll call him Mark - not his actual name) Mark began to show an interest in spiritual issues. One day about 5 years ago, after talking to my sister, I shared the gospel with him - drew it out. After a short discussion, I remember asking him if he'd like to see an illustration about what it meant to be a Christian. he said, "love to!"

So I laid out the gospel message, looking up a few appropriate verses, and then I suggested a "prayer," then asked him if that expressed a desire on his own heart. Tears ran down his cheeks as he said "yes." So we prayed together. I made it clear to him that the actual words of the prayer were not what saved, but that his faith in Christ, trusting in His death in his palce, was what God saw. There was no doubt about his sincerity, and his joy afterwards was so exciting.

His life changed significantly after this. he began going to church every week, and spent time in the Bible regularly. But after about two years he became frustrated about something involving the church. I tried to work through it with him, and eventually suggested that he attend a different church, suggesting some in their local. Eventually though, he stopped attending. he was still very positive about the Lord, but felt that he didn't need to go to church. After a year and a half or so, he became more and more bitter, and some serious lifestyle issues became apparent. He no longer goes to church, and has no interest in God. My sister last told me that he told her that he no longer believes in God.

But I realize that he may return to the Lord. However, what if he never does? One thing I am confident about: he genuinely trusted in Christ about 5 years ago.

Now I realize that we should not use testimonies to determine theology, but some testimonies have already been shared and hypothetical ones suggested. This one is real. I have absolutely no doubt that I will see him in the kingdom.

FA

 

[Faith alone]

Maybe someone should start a thread discussing the differences and similarities between a front-loaded gospel and a back-loaded gospel.

I believe there is absolutely no essential difference.

In other words, saying "You have to have enduring works before you can be saved", is identical to saying, "If you are really saved, you WILL automatically and inevitably have enduring works, or else it proves you were never saved to begin with,"

Interesting indeed.

FA

 

[Faith alone]

I believe a true believer can be deceived by added beliefs that cover up their true faith in Christ. My sister is a prime example. She was a saved late in childhood. She showed obvious signs of fruit in her life, and had a genuine love for the Lord. For many reasons, she never had a boyfriend thourghout high school and her early teens. You can imagine the devastation this has on a person...the feeling of not being wanted by the opposite sex.
Needless to say, a guy finally took interest in her from work. Problem is, he was mixed up in occultic behavior (vampirism, voodoo, etc.).

At this point, my sister fell for this guy so hard, and even put up with infidelity on his part. The guy was scum. She was so blinded by what she perceived as "love" from him, she also went along with his garbage. She was found dead with him in her apartment. She died a very painful death.

Even during the brief time in her life where she was going through this apostacy, my then future wife was saved. I remember the look on her face and tone of her voice when I told her that. Gone was the dark, tough girl that came along with her boyfriend, and I could see the genuine excitement for my wife! She always told me her life needed to be changed back, but she got herself deeper and deeper to the point, IMO, the Lord took her. This, I believe, is "a sin unto death" spoken about in the other thread.

So Amy, to answer your question, I believe a true believer can be decieved into thinking they don't believe, but my God is greater than the god of this world who does the deceving. He promises to never leave nor forsake us.

Well put webdog. Once we recognize that a person who has trusted in Christ (we're not talking about saying certain words, but genuine faith) is changed, then what we are really facing is not possible ending of believing, but possible loss of salvation. I am convinced the latter is not possible. At least from a human perspective, the former is possible IMO.

Thx again,

FA

 

[webdog]

Someone gives you a "real" personal example and that's still not enough to convince you. :tonofbricks:

Another belief system overshadowed her true belief...you know, like the heretical false doctrine you now believe in regards to ME overshadowing the truth?

 

[webdog]

Webdog shared that personal story and that was appropriate. Considering there was such a loss involved others should be sensative to such a loss in making their arguments.

Thanks, but I don't take it personal with jjump. I've come to expect that.

 

[webdog]

Let me share a testimony...

About 5 or 6 years ago my brother-in-law's dad got saved and (I'll call him Mark - not his actual name) Mark began to show an interest in spiritual issues. One day about 5 years ago, after talking to my sister, I shared the gospel with him - drew it out. After a short discussion, I remember asking him if he'd like to see an illustration about what it meant to be a Christian. he said, "love to!"

So I laid out the gospel message, looking up a few appropriate verses, and then I suggested a "prayer," then asked him if that expressed a desire on his own heart. Tears ran down his cheeks as he said "yes." So we prayed together. I made it clear to him that the actual words of the prayer were not what saved, but that his faith in Christ, trusting in His death in his palce, was what God saw. There was no doubt about his sincerity, and his joy afterwards was so exciting.

His life changed significantly after this. he began going to church every week, and spent time in the Bible regularly. But after about two years he became frustrated about something involving the church. I tried to work through it with him, and eventually suggested that he attend a different church, suggesting some in their local. Eventually though, he stopped attending. he was still very positive about the Lord, but felt that he didn't need to go to church. After a year and a half or so, he became more and more bitter, and some serious lifestyle issues became apparent. He no longer goes to church, and has no interest in God. My sister last told me that he told her that he no longer believes in God.

But I realize that he may return to the Lord. However, what if he never does? One thing I am confident about: he genuinely trusted in Christ about 5 years ago.

Now I realize that we should not use testimonies to determine theology, but some testimonies have already been shared and hypothetical ones suggested. This one is real. I have absolutely no doubt that I will see him in the kingdom.

FA

Thank you for the testimony. This happens more than Christians want to admit. Even true beleivers who we think are good, fruit bearing Christians that show up each time the church doors are open put on an act to cover up sin in their lives. I have no doubt my sister and your friend will both be with Christ.
One other thing I never understood about the ME garbage...according to them, my sister is eternally saved...with the Lord now...but will then be sent to hell when the MK begins? Makes no sense whatsoever...

 

[Hope of Glory]

But when push comes to shove, really, really comes to shove, it's back to the arms of God he goes.

I know. VOE.

My personal VOE, as well, but I also have an experience similar to the one Faith Alone shared. A friend of mine was saved when he was much younger. Lived for the Lord well into his teens. However, he was surrounded with the screaming and yelling and "You're going to hell if you read anything but the KJV!" crowd, and saw that what they taught was contrary to reality, so if the Bible was full of lies, then God couldn't be real.

In talking to him, I am convinced that he knew in whom he believed, and that he, without a doubt believed on the Lord Jesus as his savior. (He means it, and I'm convinced that he's serious.)

He no longer believes in God.

However, since I have been able to lay out the Scriptures to him and show that there is no contradiction between science fact and the Bible (and he knows there is a lot in so-called science that is speculation that has to be accepted on faith), and that there are no contradictions between OSAS and other because the Kingdom message is distinct from the message of spiritual salvation, he has started listening again.

Hopefully this trend will continue.

But, if he had been killed a year ago, he would have died being a complete unbeliever, but still saved.

 

[Hope of Glory]

Another belief system overshadowed her true belief...you know, like the heretical false doctrine you now believe in regards to ME overshadowing the truth?

Just as so many have belief systems that overshadow the truth, such as the heretical doctrine that there are no warnings given to saved people?

Your's is more heretical than mine!

There! I've won the argument using your rules!

Now, back to the discussion at hand in which we will continue posting Scripture and you will continue saying, "No it isn't!"

 

[Faith alone]

Thank you for the testimony. This happens more than Christians want to admit. Even true beleivers who we think are good, fruit bearing Christians that show up each time the church doors are open put on an act to cover up sin in their lives. I have no doubt my sister and your friend will both be with Christ.
One other thing I never understood about the ME garbage...according to them, my sister is eternally saved...with the Lord now...but will then be sent to hell when the MK begins? Makes no sense whatsoever...

ME?

I never heard of such theology! Whoa. It is amazing what extremes we sometimes go to IOT hang onto certain favorite doctrines.

FA

 

[Hope of Glory]

according to them, my sister is eternally saved...with the Lord now...but will then be sent to hell when the MK begins?

OK, I'm a calm person, but this really burns me up!

Why do you find it necessary to lie?

If your position is just and right why do you have to lie to "prove" your point?

I challenge you to show where anyone on this thread has said your sister is going to hell, or apologize for lieing.

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

OK, I'm a calm person, but this really burns me up!

Why do you find it necessary to lie?

If your position is just and right why do you have to lie to "prove" your point?

I challenge you to show where anyone on this thread has said your sister is going to hell, or apologize for lieing.

Great then inform us as to where chitwood craig or faust has taught you that unfaithful saved will go during the millenium.

 

[webdog]

OK, I'm a calm person, but this really burns me up!

Why do you find it necessary to lie?

If your position is just and right why do you have to lie to "prove" your point?

I challenge you to show where anyone on this thread has said your sister is going to hell, or apologize for lieing.

I didn't lie about anything. Where do disobedient believers go during the MK, HOG?

 

[J. Jump]

you know, like the heretical false doctrine you now believe in regards to ME overshadowing the truth?

No I don't know seeings that the gospel of the kingdom is as True as Christ is True!

 

[J. Jump]

I've come to expect that.

Come to expect what? Please show me where I insulted you or your sister. I said NOTHING of either of you. More baseless accusations on your part. Now that's not surprising!

All I said was that someone gave personal testimony of what I was talking about and that still wasn't enough to convince Amy. The only person that even has a right to be offended would be Amy and I didn't even say anything to her accept that she wasn't convinced that's hardly something to get offended over. I didn't even make mention of you or your sister.

 

[Amy.G]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hope of Glory
OK, I'm a calm person, but this really burns me up!

Why do you find it necessary to lie?

If your position is just and right why do you have to lie to "prove" your point?

I challenge you to show where anyone on this thread has said your sister is going to hell, or apologize for lieing.

Webdog:

I didn't lie about anything. Where do disobedient believers go during the MK, HOG?

(playing the Jeopardy song)

 

[Hope of Glory]

At the Judgment Seat of Christ, all saved people, and only saved people, will receive for what they've done in the flesh: Some will receive reward, some will suffer loss, and some will receive chastisement. These wages that we've earned are based on our works; they don't judge whether we are saved or not.

Jesus Christ is the judge! He will judge in the future! Only he knows what will happen to your sister! Not I, not you, not even your sister!

The Bible is very negative by modern standards. It spends much more time warning about adultery, covetousness, lieing, etc. than it does on the positive.

In fact, it says that many are called, but few are called out!

Out of the saved people who will be at the Judgment Seat, I don't know how many will have nothing; I don't know how many will receive punishment; But, I do know that few will be elect!

I have said nothing of your sister! Not a single peep!

You have to resort to lies and you call your position just?!?

If you're not lieing, please show a quote where anyone on this thread, other than you yourself, has said a single word about your sister receiving anything!

 

[Amy.G]

At the Judgment Seat of Christ, all saved people, and only saved people, will receive for what they've done in the flesh: Some will receive reward, some will suffer loss, and some will receive chastisement. These wages that we've earned are based on our works; they don't judge whether we are saved or not.

Jesus Christ is the judge! He will judge in the future! Only he knows what will happen to your sister! Not I, not you, not even your sister!

The Bible is very negative by modern standards. It spends much more time warning about adultery, covetousness, lieing, etc. than it does on the positive.

In fact, it says that many are called, but few are called out!

Out of the saved people who will be at the Judgment Seat, I don't know how many will have nothing; I don't know how many will receive punishment; But, I do know that few will be elect!

I have said nothing of your sister! Not a single peep!

You have to resort to lies and you call your position just?!?

If you're not lieing, please show a quote where anyone on this thread, other than you yourself, has said a single word about your sister receiving anything!

Webdog didn't ask where his sister went. He asked:

Where do disobedient believers go during the MK, HOG?

 

[Hope of Glory]

Amy, Webdog's exact quote is:

according to them, my sister is eternally saved...with the Lord now...but will then be sent to hell when the MK begins

He states that according to us, she will be sent to hell.

This is an out-and-out lie! I'm calling on him to show us where we have ever said such a thing.

We, as saved individuals are given warnings with consequences, but we are also given the opportunity to judge ourselves while here in the flesh. It will be up to Jesus the Christ to judge at the Judgment Seat. No one else!