buckster75
Member
doe the greek allow "If they shall fall away" to be interpreted "If they could fall away"?
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Losing one's salvation
- Thread starter chickenlady
- Start date
R
RightFromWrong
Guest
The true meaning of the phrase FALL AWAY when taken in context would indicate that if you " Fall Away " from something then you must have something to fall TO.
Whenever you see this phrrase it is dealing with WORKS or it is dealing with GRACE.
If one can fall from Grace then he has to Fall onto Works. So what the writer is saying if you do not trust in WORKS than you must trust in GRACE. So if you are NO longer trusting
in grace you will have to trust in works therefore
proving you were never saved in the first place.
Whenever you see this phrrase it is dealing with WORKS or it is dealing with GRACE.
If one can fall from Grace then he has to Fall onto Works. So what the writer is saying if you do not trust in WORKS than you must trust in GRACE. So if you are NO longer trusting
in grace you will have to trust in works therefore
proving you were never saved in the first place.
I'm in the minority here, but I believe salvation is a covenant involving two parties - like marriage. While the conditions of the covenant remain in place, the covenant itself remains in place. One can choose to leave the covenant. In marriage, it can be either party, but in salvation, Christ will always remain faithful.
Just my 2 cents, don't all jump on me at once.
Just my 2 cents, don't all jump on me at once.
I Am Blessed 24
Active Member
I am so imperfect that if I had a salvation I could lose, it wouldn't be worth having.
What work could I possibly do to equal what Jesus did on the cross?
The Bible says NO MAN can pluck us out of His hand. MAN, in this case, refers to women as well as men (mankind). Since I am among the species, I cannot pluck myself out of His hand.
What work could I possibly do to equal what Jesus did on the cross?
The Bible says NO MAN can pluck us out of His hand. MAN, in this case, refers to women as well as men (mankind). Since I am among the species, I cannot pluck myself out of His hand.
natters, not jumping on ya'
but the Bible doesn't compare salvation to marriage. When describing salvation it talks of us being made into "new creatures", being "quickened", having an integral part of us changed. It is more than just a covenant or marriage contract, which, like you said, an unfaithful partner could just walk away from. Its different if you are actually turned into someone new. You are changed. You can't go back and have God change you back into what you had been before.
When the Bible talks of an analogy with marriage it is talking of Christ's relationship with the Church, and then there's the Parable of the Ten VIrgins, who are waiting for the kingdom of God. But those instances are not describing the process of salvation itself. That's what Im trying to say.
but the Bible doesn't compare salvation to marriage. When describing salvation it talks of us being made into "new creatures", being "quickened", having an integral part of us changed. It is more than just a covenant or marriage contract, which, like you said, an unfaithful partner could just walk away from. Its different if you are actually turned into someone new. You are changed. You can't go back and have God change you back into what you had been before.
When the Bible talks of an analogy with marriage it is talking of Christ's relationship with the Church, and then there's the Parable of the Ten VIrgins, who are waiting for the kingdom of God. But those instances are not describing the process of salvation itself. That's what Im trying to say.
R
RightFromWrong
Guest
There are many examples of CONDITIONAL and UNCONDITIONAL covenants in the Bible. Most if not all Conditional covenants are found in the Old Testament. Below is an excellent listing of these covenants. Check it out and see if you still believe God acts like we do and if he doesn't make promises that he will not keep.
Christains are in an UNBREAKABLE covenant with God, which neither partner can break. Being sealed with the spirit is a indicator and a promise to this fact.
http://tinyurl.com/cjy86
Edited to shorten link
[ September 29, 2005, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: C4K ]
Christains are in an UNBREAKABLE covenant with God, which neither partner can break. Being sealed with the spirit is a indicator and a promise to this fact.
http://tinyurl.com/cjy86
Edited to shorten link
[ September 29, 2005, 03:06 PM: Message edited by: C4K ]
Do you feel the same way about marriage? Why or why not?
Nothing we could do could equal that.
I agree no one can pluck (force, seize) us out, just as no one can pluck us out of a marriage - but leaving on our own volition is not plucking.
Good.natters, not jumping on ya'
I only used marriage as another example of covenant. In fact, the term "New Testament" literally and explicitly refers to the "covenant" made possible by Christ.
I agree we are changed (but the change is not yet complete). However, the Bible warns often about not going back. (Luke 8:13, John 15:6, 2 Pet 2:20-22, etc.)
Thanks RightFromWrong, I'll look over that webpage when I have some time to read it all at once. However, what (from scripture) makes you think the New Covenant cannot be broken by us (I agree it cannot be broken by Christ)? It seems to me that the unconditional covenants were established by God without any conditional prerequisites done by man (i.e. man didn't have to do anything to have the covenant established). However, with salvation, there is a requirement on our part - belief.
I Am Blessed 24
Active Member
No because a marriage is a covenant between two human beings and they can change their minds.
Salvation is a covenant between a human being and God and God never changes. When it comes to salvation, it doesn't matter if the human being changes or not - He still belongs to God.
It is finished!
§ue (OSAS)
R
RightFromWrong
Guest
LUKE 8:18 is talking about someone who was NEVER saved ( They had No root they were not founded IN Christ ) read the whole chapter and you will see the frist three examples Christ gave were of people who were never saved to begin with and the last one was the TRUE believer, the one who had their ROOTS secure IN Christ.
John 15:6 is clearly talking about a Christian who doesn't bear fruit that his WORKS will be BURNED up. He will remain saved but his works will suffer loss. 1 Cor 3:8-15
2 Peter 2:20-22 the WHOLE chapter is talking about people who heard the Gospel who had been enlightened with the truth but turned away from it, instead of towards it and choose to remain in bondage. It would have been better to have never been enlightened because NOW their JUDGMENT will be greater on Judgment day.
You are talking verses WAY out of context.
John 15:6 is clearly talking about a Christian who doesn't bear fruit that his WORKS will be BURNED up. He will remain saved but his works will suffer loss. 1 Cor 3:8-15
2 Peter 2:20-22 the WHOLE chapter is talking about people who heard the Gospel who had been enlightened with the truth but turned away from it, instead of towards it and choose to remain in bondage. It would have been better to have never been enlightened because NOW their JUDGMENT will be greater on Judgment day.
You are talking verses WAY out of context.
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RightFromWrong
Guest
If God says he made an UNCONDITIONAL covenants that means there is nothing YOU or ANYONE can do to break it. If that were true than it wouldn't be UNCONDITIONAL anymore would it ? It would be conditional.
Like Iamblessed16 said the Bible is clear N
NE CAN SNATCH THEM OUT OF MY FATHERS HAND
not even yourself !
Like Iamblessed16 said the Bible is clear N
NE CAN SNATCH THEM OUT OF MY FATHERS HANDnot even yourself !
R
RightFromWrong
Guest
Got to go work with the horses be back later
Hi RightFromWrong,
I disagree. The passage says they believed before they fell away. John 3:16, Rom 10:9, etc. say if we believe we are saved.
Again I disagree. The verse is about those that stop abiding. The verse says if the man does not abide, the man (not his works, but the man himself) is cast off (no longer attached to the vine) and burned.
I mostly agree, except that verse 20 does NOT say they remained in bondage, but rather they escaped it for a while and were later entangled again.
"Loosing one's salvation" is like stopping being a born one of one's earthly father.
With that comment, I would remind y'all this particular topic is a CAT2 truth. Therefore, please keep the tempurature of the converstaion below a simmer (as it is so far). If the moderators see any bubbles, we will take steps to cool off the thread.
With that comment, I would remind y'all this particular topic is a CAT2 truth. Therefore, please keep the tempurature of the converstaion below a simmer (as it is so far). If the moderators see any bubbles, we will take steps to cool off the thread.
O
OCC
Guest
"Anyone can 'taste'. Most are not interested in the full meal, however! And what about tasting the powers of the coming age?"
But Jesus "tasted" death and we know he actually died.
These verses kind of scare me (I started in a pentecostal church). What I DO know, is that it is funny how the people that say you can lose your salvation can get it back again...when the very verse they use to "support" their case says the opposite.
But Jesus "tasted" death and we know he actually died.
These verses kind of scare me (I started in a pentecostal church). What I DO know, is that it is funny how the people that say you can lose your salvation can get it back again...when the very verse they use to "support" their case says the opposite.
Aye, there's the rub, KJ.
Truly natters, what do you do with that? Every person Ive ever known who says they can lose their salvation, also then say that they can get it back again. But that verse clearly says Christ would have to be crucified again, IF it were possible for them to fall away.
I still say that that verse is talking about IF they COULD fall away. I believe thats what the wording is talking about. The whole point is that salvation cannot be redone.......either once its given it is permanent, OR once its given and LOST it cannot be regained. But I don't see in that verse that God is saying it can be lost....I only see it said that IF it could be lost....etc....
Truly natters, what do you do with that? Every person Ive ever known who says they can lose their salvation, also then say that they can get it back again. But that verse clearly says Christ would have to be crucified again, IF it were possible for them to fall away.
I still say that that verse is talking about IF they COULD fall away. I believe thats what the wording is talking about. The whole point is that salvation cannot be redone.......either once its given it is permanent, OR once its given and LOST it cannot be regained. But I don't see in that verse that God is saying it can be lost....I only see it said that IF it could be lost....etc....
O
OCC
Guest
I tend to believe you but I'm still a bit scared due to my past and I have this incredible need to be right when it comes to spiritual things. I don't want to be wrong and end up in hell.
I Am Blessed 24
Active Member
The 'prodigal son' left his father and went into sin, but he did not lose his father, nor did his father lose him.
He lost FELLOWSHIP with his father, nothing else.
Your earthly father will always be your earthly father.
Your heavenly Father will always be your heavenly Father.
We may lose FELLOWSHIP with our heavenly Father, but just like the father of the prodigal son - our Father is always waiting with the fatted calf and outstretched arms.
He lost FELLOWSHIP with his father, nothing else.
Your earthly father will always be your earthly father.
Your heavenly Father will always be your heavenly Father.
We may lose FELLOWSHIP with our heavenly Father, but just like the father of the prodigal son - our Father is always waiting with the fatted calf and outstretched arms.
R
RightFromWrong
Guest
Where in Luke 8:18 or anywhere in Luke 8 does it say they " Believed " it says they HEARD the word. Just because someone hears the word doesn't mean they accepted it and are saved !
You can disagree all you want doesn't make you right. You have been taught wrong and are taking Bible verses out of context.
Abide means to walk in the way, to have a close relationship with someone to be in TUNE et.
It has to do with FELLOWSHIP not SALVATION. The Bible is very clear there will be those who go to Heaven by the skin of their theeth. they get saved but never really grow or show much fruit but they are still saved. Otherwise how do you explain away 1 COR chapter 3 ?
You need to read 2 Peter the whole chapter and show me that these people were really saved. I couldn't see it, I saw Peter talking about false Prophets and what will happen to them and their evil ways. But I couldn't see how any of it had to do with true believers ????
You can disagree all you want doesn't make you right. You have been taught wrong and are taking Bible verses out of context.
Abide means to walk in the way, to have a close relationship with someone to be in TUNE et.
It has to do with FELLOWSHIP not SALVATION. The Bible is very clear there will be those who go to Heaven by the skin of their theeth. they get saved but never really grow or show much fruit but they are still saved. Otherwise how do you explain away 1 COR chapter 3 ?
You need to read 2 Peter the whole chapter and show me that these people were really saved. I couldn't see it, I saw Peter talking about false Prophets and what will happen to them and their evil ways. But I couldn't see how any of it had to do with true believers ????