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Losing one's salvation
- Thread starter chickenlady
- Start date
I Am Blessed 24
Active Member
You might want to check the 'featured' rules at the top of this forum to find out.
The Bible is clear that a person can KNOW they have eternal life. If everlasting life were conditional, no one could TRULY know this.
1Jo 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Also,
Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
There is no mistaking this verse. It clearly says that someone who believes (relies upon, trusts)Christ has (present tense)everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed (past tense) from death unto life.
If a person could lose their salvation and later come into condemnation, then this verse would be false.
I sure wouldn't call a salvation that can be lost everlasting. Sounds temporary to me.
To believe on Christ means to give up on trying to save yourself. I compare it to someone parachuting out of an airplane. You trust your very life to the parachute to get you down safely. You put yourself in a completely hopeless situation. If the parachute fails, you are a goner.
And this is what it means to believe on Christ. You put your very soul in His hands and rely on him completely to save you.
He will never fail.
1Jo 5:11 And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; [and] he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Also,
Jhn 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
There is no mistaking this verse. It clearly says that someone who believes (relies upon, trusts)Christ has (present tense)everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation, but is passed (past tense) from death unto life.
If a person could lose their salvation and later come into condemnation, then this verse would be false.
I sure wouldn't call a salvation that can be lost everlasting. Sounds temporary to me.
To believe on Christ means to give up on trying to save yourself. I compare it to someone parachuting out of an airplane. You trust your very life to the parachute to get you down safely. You put yourself in a completely hopeless situation. If the parachute fails, you are a goner.
And this is what it means to believe on Christ. You put your very soul in His hands and rely on him completely to save you.
He will never fail.
Thanks El_Guero and I Am Blessed 16, I had no idea what he was talking about.
RightFromWrong, that writer of that article claims that salvation is an unconditional covenant, but does not explain why he came to that conclusion. He does say that the covenant involves two parties (like I have been saying). Notice in the Mosaic covenant, the author says that "Conditional = fulfillment depends on recipients meeting conditions imposed". I am saying that in the new covenant, there IS a imposed condition which we must meet - we must believe. We do not receive salvation if we do not believe. That's why I asked you "Then why do we have to believe?" - because the answer is that it is NOT "ALL ABOUT GOD NOTHING ABOUT US PERIOD", but rather our belief is the condition of the covenant that we must meet in order for the covenant to apply to us.
An unconditional covenant would not require us to believe, nor is belief simply "our responsibility" once the covenant is already in place. Belief is required of us to enter the covenant in the first place.
JWI, I agree with most of what you have posted. However, I notice that both verses, like I have been saying, clearly indicate what is required of us - believing. The word "believe" in both these passages, like in John 3:16, are in present participle form - which indicates continuous action (as opposed to aorist participles, which indicate a simple one-time action). Thus the meaning of John 5:24 is "...He that heareth my word, and believeth (continuously) on him that sent me, hath everlasting life..." Read the verse again with that small change in understanding, but leave the rest of your understanding (present tense, etc.) in place, and see what you think of it.
RightFromWrong, that writer of that article claims that salvation is an unconditional covenant, but does not explain why he came to that conclusion. He does say that the covenant involves two parties (like I have been saying). Notice in the Mosaic covenant, the author says that "Conditional = fulfillment depends on recipients meeting conditions imposed". I am saying that in the new covenant, there IS a imposed condition which we must meet - we must believe. We do not receive salvation if we do not believe. That's why I asked you "Then why do we have to believe?" - because the answer is that it is NOT "ALL ABOUT GOD NOTHING ABOUT US PERIOD", but rather our belief is the condition of the covenant that we must meet in order for the covenant to apply to us.
An unconditional covenant would not require us to believe, nor is belief simply "our responsibility" once the covenant is already in place. Belief is required of us to enter the covenant in the first place.
JWI, I agree with most of what you have posted. However, I notice that both verses, like I have been saying, clearly indicate what is required of us - believing. The word "believe" in both these passages, like in John 3:16, are in present participle form - which indicates continuous action (as opposed to aorist participles, which indicate a simple one-time action). Thus the meaning of John 5:24 is "...He that heareth my word, and believeth (continuously) on him that sent me, hath everlasting life..." Read the verse again with that small change in understanding, but leave the rest of your understanding (present tense, etc.) in place, and see what you think of it.
O
One of His sheep
Guest
ccrobinson
Active Member
natters, I don't remember if you've answered this in the past, so please forgive me if you have.
How does your idea of continuing to believe fit with "Except a man be born again..."? Once you're born, it's impossible to be un-born, and that appears to be directly contrary to the position that I could lose my salvation. Once I'm born as a child of God, how do I get unborn?
Thanks!
How does your idea of continuing to believe fit with "Except a man be born again..."? Once you're born, it's impossible to be un-born, and that appears to be directly contrary to the position that I could lose my salvation. Once I'm born as a child of God, how do I get unborn?
Thanks!
I don't remember if I answered that in the past either.
I do not believe one is "unborn". One is physically born to his/her earthly, biological parents. He will always be their son/daughter. However, that does not guarantee he/she will always have a relationship with them.
Consider the branch of John 15:6. It was "born" from the vine. It will never be "unborn", never not have the vine as its generator. Yet it is still possible for the branch to be cut off from the vine and be burned.
I do not believe one is "unborn". One is physically born to his/her earthly, biological parents. He will always be their son/daughter. However, that does not guarantee he/she will always have a relationship with them.
Consider the branch of John 15:6. It was "born" from the vine. It will never be "unborn", never not have the vine as its generator. Yet it is still possible for the branch to be cut off from the vine and be burned.
ccrobinson
Active Member
Aren't we talking about 2 different things that keep getting mixed up in this discussion of losing salvation? Having, or not having, a relationship with somebody doesn't change my position to them.
If I decide that I'm never speaking to my earthly father again, does he cease to be my father? I may have no relationship with him anymore, but I'm still his son.
Regarding John 15:6, that chapter doesn't look to me like it addresses salvation, but is about bearing fruit as a Christian. From verse 1 to 27, it looks like Christ is teaching about bearing fruit, not about salvation. I'd like to hear what others have to say about John 15 in regards to eternal security and whether it applies or not to the doctrine.
If I decide that I'm never speaking to my earthly father again, does he cease to be my father? I may have no relationship with him anymore, but I'm still his son.
Regarding John 15:6, that chapter doesn't look to me like it addresses salvation, but is about bearing fruit as a Christian. From verse 1 to 27, it looks like Christ is teaching about bearing fruit, not about salvation. I'd like to hear what others have to say about John 15 in regards to eternal security and whether it applies or not to the doctrine.
I agree. However, without a relationship anymore, you're not going to stay together - you're going to part ways. Scripture repeatedly tells us what will happen if we don't "abide" or "remain" (continue to stay) with Christ.
In verse 6, what is cast forth (removed) from the vine and burned? The works/fruit (or lack thereof) of a man, or the man himself?
Never interpret a clear statement by an unclear statement;Always interpret the unclear statement by the clear one.
God always says what he means and always means what he says,but sometimes we are much too careless in observing just what it is he does say.
One should avoid all personal prejudice,and be honest in his or her use of scripture[IICorinthians4:2].
Don't force the word of God to support your theory.
One should not hurry interpretation-especially of difficult BIBLE passages.
A Servant of God ;
Jeff B Grover
God always says what he means and always means what he says,but sometimes we are much too careless in observing just what it is he does say.
One should avoid all personal prejudice,and be honest in his or her use of scripture[IICorinthians4:2].
Don't force the word of God to support your theory.
One should not hurry interpretation-especially of difficult BIBLE passages.
A Servant of God ;
Jeff B Grover
natters
Of course you must believe.
To me the word believe means rely upon, depend upon, or trust. I place my soul in Jesus hand's and rely upon Him completely to save me.
And this is not something you have to do over and over again. To be saved is to be "born again". You are only born into this world once, and you need to be born of God only once.
This is why Jesus says we have passed (past tense) from death to life. Just as Nicodemus reasoned, you cannot go back into your mother's womb. And once you are born of God you cannot go back either.
I believe many of Jesus's miracles were a picture of salvation. When Christ healed the blind or lame, these were people who could not help or heal themselves, just as we cannot help or heal our own sin condition. But if we sincerely come to Christ and depend upon Him, we will be saved just as those helpless people were healed.
All ten lepers were healed, even though only one returned to worship Christ. Nevertheless, all ten were healed (cleansed) according to Christ himself.
Luk 17:12 And as he entered into a certain village, there met him ten men that were lepers, which stood afar off:
Luk 17:13 And they lifted up [their] voices, and said, Jesus, Master, have mercy on us.
Luk 17:14 And when he saw [them], he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed.
Luk 17:15 And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God,
Luk 17:16 And fell down on [his] face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan.
Luk 17:17 And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where [are] the nine?
Luk 17:18 There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.
Luk 17:19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.
Of course you must believe.
To me the word believe means rely upon, depend upon, or trust. I place my soul in Jesus hand's and rely upon Him completely to save me.
And this is not something you have to do over and over again. To be saved is to be "born again". You are only born into this world once, and you need to be born of God only once.
This is why Jesus says we have passed (past tense) from death to life. Just as Nicodemus reasoned, you cannot go back into your mother's womb. And once you are born of God you cannot go back either.
I believe many of Jesus's miracles were a picture of salvation. When Christ healed the blind or lame, these were people who could not help or heal themselves, just as we cannot help or heal our own sin condition. But if we sincerely come to Christ and depend upon Him, we will be saved just as those helpless people were healed.
All ten lepers were healed, even though only one returned to worship Christ. Nevertheless, all ten were healed (cleansed) according to Christ himself.
Luk 17:12 And as he entered into a certain village, there met him ten men that were lepers, which stood afar off:
Luk 17:13 And they lifted up [their] voices, and said, Jesus, Master, have mercy on us.
Luk 17:14 And when he saw [them], he said unto them, Go shew yourselves unto the priests. And it came to pass, that, as they went, they were cleansed.
Luk 17:15 And one of them, when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God,
Luk 17:16 And fell down on [his] face at his feet, giving him thanks: and he was a Samaritan.
Luk 17:17 And Jesus answering said, Were there not ten cleansed? but where [are] the nine?
Luk 17:18 There are not found that returned to give glory to God, save this stranger.
Luk 17:19 And he said unto him, Arise, go thy way: thy faith hath made thee whole.
Erik the Redboy
New Member
In Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall CALL upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Call is sigular not plural.
And saved is future tense. My question would be to those who belive that you can lose your salvation. Peter, out of fear, denied Christ and cursed about knowing him. Where in the scipture did Peter recieve Christ more than once. John 10:28,29. Jesus said no man could pluck you out of his hand. ARE YOU A MAN? YOU ARE STRONGER THAN GOD THAT YOU CAN PLUCK YOURSELF OUT OF HIS HAND? SO THE GOD THAT WE SERVE IS WEEK AND THE BLOOD JESUS SHED IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO COVER ALL OUR SINS?
For whosoever shall CALL upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Call is sigular not plural.
And saved is future tense. My question would be to those who belive that you can lose your salvation. Peter, out of fear, denied Christ and cursed about knowing him. Where in the scipture did Peter recieve Christ more than once. John 10:28,29. Jesus said no man could pluck you out of his hand. ARE YOU A MAN? YOU ARE STRONGER THAN GOD THAT YOU CAN PLUCK YOURSELF OUT OF HIS HAND? SO THE GOD THAT WE SERVE IS WEEK AND THE BLOOD JESUS SHED IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO COVER ALL OUR SINS?
natter,I'm very glad you liked what I've written above , now we come to the good stuff.Originally posted by SAMPLEWOW:
Never interpret a clear statement by an unclear statement;Always interpret the unclear statement by the clear one.
God always says what he means and always means what he says,but sometimes we are much too careless in observing just what it is he does say.
One should avoid all personal prejudice,and be honest in his or her use of scripture[IICorinthians4:2].
Don't force the word of God to support your theory.
One should not hurry interpretation-especially of difficult BIBLE passages.
A Servant of God ;
Jeff B Grover
At least 160 times GOD clearly says ;the one condition for receiving eternal life ,or salvation ,is belief in Christ I'm a very slow typist so I won't list them unless you ask, but my point is [clear scripture]160 times god says believe, not work !
What a bummer to think I'd have to work the rest of my life for something that I already got for just believing. It's a gift !
I believe;
Jeff
Grover
JWI and SAMPLEWOW,
I'm not sure you understand what I am saying. Perhaps going back through the thread and reading all my previous replies will help. I agree that belief is what is necessary. My point is two-fold: 1. belief is what allows us to enter the new covenant, and 2. since belief is the requirement of the covenant, the belief must be continuous - i.e. the covenant can be broken if we later stop believing and reject.
Erik the Red, I don't think Peter received Christ more than once. I don't think he ever stopped believing in his heart, despite his verbal denial out of fear. Also, no one can pluck us out of his hand and God is not weak and the blood Jesus shed is good enough. No one can pluck you out of a covenant, but you can leave the covenant on your own. God is strong enough to let us go if we turn our backs on him. Jesus' blood is enough, but counting it as an unholy thing after one is sanctified by it will result in vengenance from God (Heb 10:29).
I'm not sure you understand what I am saying. Perhaps going back through the thread and reading all my previous replies will help. I agree that belief is what is necessary. My point is two-fold: 1. belief is what allows us to enter the new covenant, and 2. since belief is the requirement of the covenant, the belief must be continuous - i.e. the covenant can be broken if we later stop believing and reject.
Erik the Red, I don't think Peter received Christ more than once. I don't think he ever stopped believing in his heart, despite his verbal denial out of fear. Also, no one can pluck us out of his hand and God is not weak and the blood Jesus shed is good enough. No one can pluck you out of a covenant, but you can leave the covenant on your own. God is strong enough to let us go if we turn our backs on him. Jesus' blood is enough, but counting it as an unholy thing after one is sanctified by it will result in vengenance from God (Heb 10:29).
ccrobinson
Active Member
Really? I could leave Christ on my own? Aren't you forgetting about who lives inside of who? If I were in Christ, I suppose I could do that because I'm that weak. But, since Christ lives inside of me, where could I go to get away from him?
Did Christ ever say that he would leave me? Or, did he say that he would never leave me?
Did Christ ever say that he would leave me? Or, did he say that he would never leave me?
ccrobinson, I have presented numerous explanations and examples, most from scripture, in my previous posts. It seems they are all being ignored, and I am repeatedly asked new questions instead of having people respond to my main points.
Yes, Christ will never leave us. He will remain faithful, like a husband who will never leave his wife. However, that doesn't mean the wife can't leave the husband. Only a sadistic husband would keep his wife locked in a cage when she wanted to leave him.
Scripture repeatedly tells us we MUST "remain", "abide", "stand firm", "continue" and so on. The Greek uses the continuous action form of "believe" and not the simple one-time action when it tells us that we must believe and that belief is required. Scripture talks about falling away, turing back, and returning to the bondage of sin. It talks of being cut off, cast off, and being burned after being sanctified. Scripture talks of the one who was forgiven of his debt, yet later had that debt reinstated and was cast into prison until he paid the debt himself. Yet no one here seems willing to directly discuss these passages other than to say "I think it's just talking about works" or "you're probably misinterpreting that" or "do you think God is really that weak?" etc.
Yes, Christ will never leave us. He will remain faithful, like a husband who will never leave his wife. However, that doesn't mean the wife can't leave the husband. Only a sadistic husband would keep his wife locked in a cage when she wanted to leave him.
Scripture repeatedly tells us we MUST "remain", "abide", "stand firm", "continue" and so on. The Greek uses the continuous action form of "believe" and not the simple one-time action when it tells us that we must believe and that belief is required. Scripture talks about falling away, turing back, and returning to the bondage of sin. It talks of being cut off, cast off, and being burned after being sanctified. Scripture talks of the one who was forgiven of his debt, yet later had that debt reinstated and was cast into prison until he paid the debt himself. Yet no one here seems willing to directly discuss these passages other than to say "I think it's just talking about works" or "you're probably misinterpreting that" or "do you think God is really that weak?" etc.