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Losing one's salvation
- Thread starter chickenlady
- Start date
I already discussed that verse in this thread. To "snatch" is to forcefully snatch. It is the same word used in 1 Thes 4:17, about being "caught up" in the air. It is true that no one can do this to you, but to break the covenant on your own is not to "forcefully snatch" yourself. Similarly, no one can "pluck" me out of my marriage, despite the possibility of divorce existing.
He didn't say you can't leave, he said no one can forcefully snatch you. No one can forcefully snatch me out of my marriage covenant, but I can leave it on my own, even if my wife wouldn't want it.
Also, the sow that was washed can return to the mire, the branch on the vine can be cut off, and the servant that has been forgiven can have that forgiveness revoked.
See Jer 3:8.
Also, the sow that was washed can return to the mire, the branch on the vine can be cut off, and the servant that has been forgiven can have that forgiveness revoked.
The vine thing wouldn't be old if someone was willing to actually talk about how the man was cut off the vine and burned, not just his fruitless areas.
OK, if you don't want to talk about that, how about the servant who was totally forgiven, but later had his forgiveness revoked, and was cast into prison?
OK, if you don't want to talk about that, how about the servant who was totally forgiven, but later had his forgiveness revoked, and was cast into prison?
ccrobinson
Active Member
All I can ever figure out about the non-OSAS position is that on some theoretical level a Christian can stop believing. Salvation is compared to a marriage and one person can divorce, but as far as I understand it, both parties have to agree to a divorce for it to happen. Furthermore, just because my wife leaves me doesn't mean that God stops seeing us as married.
What I've never heard anybody give is a clearly defined action of what it takes for a believer to stop believing. The non-OSAS campers point to rocky ground and thorns to support their position, but never anymore than vague generalities as they try to build more doctrine based on a parable. I've never heard a specific plan of "unsalvation" from the non-OSAS camp. I don't think I ever will.
I hear the non-OSAS camp say that they want to talk about clear Scripture. John 3:16 is pretty clear and eternal is a pretty clear word. But they want to put a condition on it, which means that eternal doesn't mean eternal and Christ was lying when he said the life he gave was eternal.
If you want to talk about the Greek, then I can't contribute to this discussion anymore, because I don't know Greek. However, there is a thread on this board about Greek tenses that applies. Here's the link. http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3394.html
The thread may be helpful and it seems to indicate something different than what we're being told here.
What I've never heard anybody give is a clearly defined action of what it takes for a believer to stop believing. The non-OSAS campers point to rocky ground and thorns to support their position, but never anymore than vague generalities as they try to build more doctrine based on a parable. I've never heard a specific plan of "unsalvation" from the non-OSAS camp. I don't think I ever will.
I hear the non-OSAS camp say that they want to talk about clear Scripture. John 3:16 is pretty clear and eternal is a pretty clear word. But they want to put a condition on it, which means that eternal doesn't mean eternal and Christ was lying when he said the life he gave was eternal.
If you want to talk about the Greek, then I can't contribute to this discussion anymore, because I don't know Greek. However, there is a thread on this board about Greek tenses that applies. Here's the link. http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/28/3394.html
The thread may be helpful and it seems to indicate something different than what we're being told here.
It is not simply theoretical if scripture talks about it, wouldn't you agree?
In certain modern western situations perhaps, but not universally. However, the point is more that salvation, like marriage, is a conditional covenant - and conditional covenants can be broken.
And what if each of you then marry another?
"How" can happen several ways. They can become again entangled in the pollution of sin (2 Pet 2:20). They can give themselves over to temptation (Luke 8:13). They can be cut off due to unfruitfulness (John 15:6, Matt 3:10). They could be a new Christian put in a position of authority, and because of pride fall in condemnation like Satan did (1 Tim 3:6). He could begin to hate his brother (1 John 3:15). He could desire to go back to how they were before salvation (Luke 9:62, Heb 10:38-39). They could, after going forth, be choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of this life (Luke 8:14). They could choose not to forgive their brother (Matt 18:23-35). They could, after being sanctified, consider the blood of Christ unholy (Heb 10:29). I think these sorts of things are intertwined, and all manifestations of the same thing - breaking the covenant.
There *is* a condition. We must believe. That's the condition. The word "believe" in that verse is an continuous, ongoing belief, not a simple one-time belief.
Greetings
The so called proofs listed below
natters cannot provide one verse that links to justification.
There is not one verse in the Bible that uses a continuous present tense form of "believe" that is linked with justification or eternal life.
Natter's so called reference to John 3:16 as a continuous present tense is blatantly wrong! It is really a gnomic present tense that speaks of a timeless truth that stands above temporality. Only those ignorant of basic first year Greek fall into this trap.
Lloyd
The so called proofs listed below
are representative redefinitions of sanctification verses as proof for justification. Not one of these so-called proofs links with justification. Every one of these proofs has to do with the believer's after justification experience and future rewards (not destiny).
natters cannot provide one verse that links to justification.
There is not one verse in the Bible that uses a continuous present tense form of "believe" that is linked with justification or eternal life.
Natter's so called reference to John 3:16 as a continuous present tense is blatantly wrong! It is really a gnomic present tense that speaks of a timeless truth that stands above temporality. Only those ignorant of basic first year Greek fall into this trap.
Lloyd
Amazing, everyone else is saying that these verses have to do with people that are not saved in the first place.
I provided several. Simply denying that I did does not make it true.
And yet my explanation agrees 100% with Luke 8:13, about those who believe only "for a while".
Discussion of individual specific verses aside for a moment, what I find really interesting is that if OSAS was true, then all the scriptures that warn against turning back, falling away, not standing firm, not enduring, etc, become basically pointless, as these things would be impossible.
Salvation is a covenant between two parties: God and man. Bottom line.
Hey natters
First, your amazement deals with John 3:16. I was referrring to the sanctification verses you used. Please try to stay with the flow of the arguments.
Second, wrt to the soils, what is the natural conclusion if we assume that the Arminian view is correct? The 2nd and 3rd soils would show that there is a faith that cannot save. Unfruitful people would not be saved. One wouldn’t know that they would go to heaven until they stood before God’s judgment seat and heard their final verdict. Eventually all would give up since it is not possible to please God by our own faithfulness. The Bible is clear that left to ourselves all would stand condemned as guilty before God (Rom 3:19).
But thank God that the Bible is also clear that we can have complete assurance (John 5:24; Romans 8:38-39; 1 John 5:13). The Bible uses these parables not to condemn believers but to exhort them to good works that will result in heavenly rewards. Some think that salvation depends on continued faith. But the Bible is clear that salvation depends upon God’s faithfulness to His covenantal promises (2 Tim 2:13). And if we don’t continue in the faith as some would think, then Hebrews 7:22 presents Jesus as our SURETY. If we fail to produce the required obedience that God demands, Jesus as our SURETY (like a co-signer on some bank note) supplies what is lacking. Hebrews 12:2 presents Jesus as the FINISHER of our faith. God does not give up on us even if we give up on ourselves. God guarantees throughout the Bible that He will never leave or forsake us (Deut 4:31, 31:6,8; Josh 1:5; 1 Chron 28:20; Heb 13:5).
The first soil is someone where the hearing does not lead to salvation while the second and third soils represent various believers who lose out on some of the future blessings of eternal life. May we all pursue eternal life and be productive like the last soil.
In verse 9, after Jesus had spoken the parable, He quotes from Isaiah 6:9-10 to let His disciples know why He spoke in parables. Then He asked them what the parable meant. Scripture doesn’t record the disciple’s response so it is likely that they were dumbfounded and speechless. Jesus’ continued by telling them that they would and should know the secrets of God’s kingdom. In context, the parable is about hearing. The issue isn’t the preaching of God’s Word; it is about hearing God’s Word. Hearing is mentioned for each soil type. Jesus develops an intricate relation between receptivity and soil.
So important is this concept of hearing that God put the Parable of a Lamp on a Stand immediately after the Parable of the Sower. During this Parable Jesus again says, “Nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest.” Believers are privileged to know the secrets of God’s kingdom. At the conclusion of this short Parable Jesus warns, “Take heed therefore how ye hear” (8:18) emphasizing hearing again. Both the fruit and the light teach the same. Bearing fruit and bearing witness to the Gospel demonstrate the degree or level of our “hearing” God’s Word. Definnbaugh gives an excellent summary:
“The goal which our Lord holds out in this parable is not that of being saved, but that of reaching full maturity and of bearing fruit. Someone might argue that a “rocky soil” person or a “thorny soil” person is a true believer, but our Lord would have us understand that they have not reached the goal for which they were saved. We are saved, not only to escape divine wrath and to live forever in heaven, but to attain to the “fullness of the stature of Christ” (Eph 4:13) and to bear fruit (John 15:5).” http://www.bible.org/docs/nt/books/luk/deffin/luke-26.htm
Finally, the Arminian view holds that there is a temporal faith. A person can believe for a while and then fall away. There are two possible views about faith: saved while they believe, or saved forever at the moment of faith. The Arminian view is an immediate contradiction because how can eternal life be eternal unless it is eternal? Why would God use the words eternal life when the words temporary life are so much more like the Arminian view? If one drinks of the water that Jesus offers he “will never thirst.” The Arminian view only holds under extreme twisting of the natural use of language. The Bible has no time limits or qualifiers for saving faith other than our Lord Jesus Christ.
The Arminian view is only plausible if one ignores the great weight of Scripture, forces the world’s view upon the Bible, and refuses to hear Bible truth once they have confronted by the truth. For them, it will indeed be a fearful thing to neglect so great a salvation!
Lloyd
First, your amazement deals with John 3:16. I was referrring to the sanctification verses you used. Please try to stay with the flow of the arguments.
Second, wrt to the soils, what is the natural conclusion if we assume that the Arminian view is correct? The 2nd and 3rd soils would show that there is a faith that cannot save. Unfruitful people would not be saved. One wouldn’t know that they would go to heaven until they stood before God’s judgment seat and heard their final verdict. Eventually all would give up since it is not possible to please God by our own faithfulness. The Bible is clear that left to ourselves all would stand condemned as guilty before God (Rom 3:19).
But thank God that the Bible is also clear that we can have complete assurance (John 5:24; Romans 8:38-39; 1 John 5:13). The Bible uses these parables not to condemn believers but to exhort them to good works that will result in heavenly rewards. Some think that salvation depends on continued faith. But the Bible is clear that salvation depends upon God’s faithfulness to His covenantal promises (2 Tim 2:13). And if we don’t continue in the faith as some would think, then Hebrews 7:22 presents Jesus as our SURETY. If we fail to produce the required obedience that God demands, Jesus as our SURETY (like a co-signer on some bank note) supplies what is lacking. Hebrews 12:2 presents Jesus as the FINISHER of our faith. God does not give up on us even if we give up on ourselves. God guarantees throughout the Bible that He will never leave or forsake us (Deut 4:31, 31:6,8; Josh 1:5; 1 Chron 28:20; Heb 13:5).
The first soil is someone where the hearing does not lead to salvation while the second and third soils represent various believers who lose out on some of the future blessings of eternal life. May we all pursue eternal life and be productive like the last soil.
In verse 9, after Jesus had spoken the parable, He quotes from Isaiah 6:9-10 to let His disciples know why He spoke in parables. Then He asked them what the parable meant. Scripture doesn’t record the disciple’s response so it is likely that they were dumbfounded and speechless. Jesus’ continued by telling them that they would and should know the secrets of God’s kingdom. In context, the parable is about hearing. The issue isn’t the preaching of God’s Word; it is about hearing God’s Word. Hearing is mentioned for each soil type. Jesus develops an intricate relation between receptivity and soil.
So important is this concept of hearing that God put the Parable of a Lamp on a Stand immediately after the Parable of the Sower. During this Parable Jesus again says, “Nothing is secret, that shall not be made manifest.” Believers are privileged to know the secrets of God’s kingdom. At the conclusion of this short Parable Jesus warns, “Take heed therefore how ye hear” (8:18) emphasizing hearing again. Both the fruit and the light teach the same. Bearing fruit and bearing witness to the Gospel demonstrate the degree or level of our “hearing” God’s Word. Definnbaugh gives an excellent summary:
“The goal which our Lord holds out in this parable is not that of being saved, but that of reaching full maturity and of bearing fruit. Someone might argue that a “rocky soil” person or a “thorny soil” person is a true believer, but our Lord would have us understand that they have not reached the goal for which they were saved. We are saved, not only to escape divine wrath and to live forever in heaven, but to attain to the “fullness of the stature of Christ” (Eph 4:13) and to bear fruit (John 15:5).” http://www.bible.org/docs/nt/books/luk/deffin/luke-26.htm
Finally, the Arminian view holds that there is a temporal faith. A person can believe for a while and then fall away. There are two possible views about faith: saved while they believe, or saved forever at the moment of faith. The Arminian view is an immediate contradiction because how can eternal life be eternal unless it is eternal? Why would God use the words eternal life when the words temporary life are so much more like the Arminian view? If one drinks of the water that Jesus offers he “will never thirst.” The Arminian view only holds under extreme twisting of the natural use of language. The Bible has no time limits or qualifiers for saving faith other than our Lord Jesus Christ.
The Arminian view is only plausible if one ignores the great weight of Scripture, forces the world’s view upon the Bible, and refuses to hear Bible truth once they have confronted by the truth. For them, it will indeed be a fearful thing to neglect so great a salvation!
Lloyd
Sorry, but I get dizzy when I answer the same questions over and over for people that don't bother to read my previous comments.
First, no, it would show that after being saved they could lose their salvation. Second, we are not saved by faith. We are saved by grace.
I disagree. We can know now if we are saved or not, just as we can know now if we are married or not.
I don't understand what you're saying. I know faithful Arminians who were faithful till their death, they did not "give up". In fact, scripture repeatedly encourages us not to give up. Are you saying these are useless scriptures, if either A. all would give up eventually, or B. OSAS is true and giving up is irrelevant?
Yes, because we would have to rely on the law, which all have broken.
I completely agree.
I don't think that.
Yes, like a husband that will never break his marriage covenant. That does not mean the wife cannot break it herself.
I completely agree.
Everyone else here has been telling me the 2nd and 3rd are people who were never saved.
I have repeatedly addressed this in this thread. Eternal life is the duration and benefit of the covenant. Like in a marriage, we are "one flesh" until "death do we part". However, these things no longer apply once the covenant is broken.
First, yes it does - belief. Second, faith does not save.
[qoute]
The Arminian view is only plausible if one ignores the great weight of Scripture, forces the world’s view upon the Bible, and refuses to hear Bible truth once they have confronted by the truth. For them, it will indeed be a fearful thing to neglect so great a salvation!
[/QUOTE]
Ya, ya. No salvation is being neglected here, but thanks for the warning.
R
Roguelet
Guest
quote:From natters
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"How" can happen several ways. They can become again entangled in the pollution of sin (2 Pet 2:20). They can give themselves over to temptation (Luke 8:13). They can be cut off due to unfruitfulness (John 15:6, Matt 3:10). They could be a new Christian put in a position of authority, and because of pride fall in condemnation like Satan did (1 Tim 3:6). He could begin to hate his brother (1 John 3:15). He could desire to go back to how they were before salvation (Luke 9:62, Heb 10:38-39). They could, after going forth, be choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of this life (Luke 8:14). They could choose not to forgive their brother (Matt 18:23-35). They could, after being sanctified, consider the blood of Christ unholy (Heb 10:29). I think these sorts of things are intertwined, and all manifestations of the same thing - breaking the covenant.
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So natters where are the verses to back up that these people can go to HELL ! These verses say nothing about HELL !
How can one be
UNBORN AGAIN
UNETERNAl LIFE
UNADOPTED
UNJUSTIFIED
UNSANTIFIED
UNFORGIVEN
UNRIGHTEOUS IF THEY HAVE JESUS'S RIGHTEOUSNESS
UNGLORIFIED
UNPOSITIONED IN THE HEAVENLY REALMS
Etc. Etc. Etc.
see where your theoligy is wrong. You cannot undue what Christ DID for you. there is nothing that YOU did to merit salvation and nothing you can do to unmerit it.
That is down right pride to say there is anything you can do to get to Heaven or earn Gods favor
JOHN 10:28
AND I GIVE UNTO THEM ETERNAL LIFE ( Forever and ever ) AND THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH NEITHER SHALL ANY MAN ( even himself ) PLUCK THEM OUT OF MY HAND !
ROMANS 8:38-39
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"How" can happen several ways. They can become again entangled in the pollution of sin (2 Pet 2:20). They can give themselves over to temptation (Luke 8:13). They can be cut off due to unfruitfulness (John 15:6, Matt 3:10). They could be a new Christian put in a position of authority, and because of pride fall in condemnation like Satan did (1 Tim 3:6). He could begin to hate his brother (1 John 3:15). He could desire to go back to how they were before salvation (Luke 9:62, Heb 10:38-39). They could, after going forth, be choked by the cares and riches and pleasures of this life (Luke 8:14). They could choose not to forgive their brother (Matt 18:23-35). They could, after being sanctified, consider the blood of Christ unholy (Heb 10:29). I think these sorts of things are intertwined, and all manifestations of the same thing - breaking the covenant.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So natters where are the verses to back up that these people can go to HELL ! These verses say nothing about HELL !
How can one be
UNBORN AGAIN
UNETERNAl LIFE
UNADOPTED
UNJUSTIFIED
UNSANTIFIED
UNFORGIVEN
UNRIGHTEOUS IF THEY HAVE JESUS'S RIGHTEOUSNESS
UNGLORIFIED
UNPOSITIONED IN THE HEAVENLY REALMS
Etc. Etc. Etc.
see where your theoligy is wrong. You cannot undue what Christ DID for you. there is nothing that YOU did to merit salvation and nothing you can do to unmerit it.
That is down right pride to say there is anything you can do to get to Heaven or earn Gods favor
JOHN 10:28
AND I GIVE UNTO THEM ETERNAL LIFE ( Forever and ever ) AND THEY SHALL NEVER PERISH NEITHER SHALL ANY MAN ( even himself ) PLUCK THEM OUT OF MY HAND !
ROMANS 8:38-39
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