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John 10:28,29
And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
Savedbygrace- What's your take on this? If no one is able to snatch us out of His hand, does that rule us out as the 'snatcher'? That is to say, is it possible to remove ourselves?
If salvation is easy why does Jesus say: "Enter by the narrow gate for the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction and those that enter it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life and those who find it are few." Matthew 7:13-14=HAMel;1663147] I am of the opinion that Salvation is so easy that even a cave man could acquire eternal life. Why is it so hard for so many others?
Disagree.It is absoloutely necessary to focus on the one word "believe." What is the precise meaning of pisteuo in this parable? Verse 12 tells us that the precise meaning of pisteuo is a believing unto salvation: "Lest they should believe and be saved."
Jesus Himself tells us the precise meaning of believe. There aren't two meanings of the word in this parable.. Both are a belief unto salvation. He tells us that some hear the word and the devil takes this belief unto salvation out of their hearts. Then there are those who have the same belief and they "believe for awhile" and then they fall away. Just because they have "no root" doesn't mean they never believed in the first place. They did have a saving faith but in time of tempation fell away.
Jesus then mentions those who "having heard the word keep it and bring forth fruit."
All of them had saving faith but some fell away and some remained in God's grace as John 15:1-10 tell us.
Point taken but we don't see the word "easy" either. What we do see is that few will find eternal life. If all one has to do is accept Christ as their personal savior then many not few would be saved.If salvation is easy why does Jesus say: "Enter by the narrow gate for the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction and those that enter it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life and those who find it are few." Matthew 7:13-14
My Bible, the KJV, reads as follows;
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
I don't see "Hard".
I disagree. In the passage the two uses of pisteou have the same meaning.=Don;1663179]Disagree.You have a word (believe). By itself, it doesn't mean belief unto salvation. In the passage, it's modified by two different phrases: "and were saved" and "and fell away."
We're not talking about James.We need to stay in the context of how the word is used in Luke. Jesus tells us in Luke the precise meaning of "believe" and it is a saving faith that the devil removes in one group but in the other they have saving faith "for awhile" and then fall away.The same word "believe" (pisteuo) is used in James 2:19; but it's obviously not in reference to a saving faith.
The woman had faith and was healed of her illness. She wasn't saved. Pistis is a form of pisteou but I don't see your point.Note Luke 8:48 (same chapter, by the way), where the word "faith" is used; in comparison to the word "belief," this word is "pistis" (of which, one of the definitions is: the religious beliefs of Christians).
Yes it is. John 3:16 "For God so love that world...that whoever believes (pisteuo) in him should not perish but have eternal life.There is a difference between belief, and belief unto salvation. The parable of the sower isn't using the word that means conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah.
Scripture disagrees with you.So sorry, I disagree with you. The word "believe" in the parable of the sower does not indicate those with a saving faith.
No, according to Jesus these people had the word that could save but the devil comes and takes away the word before it happens. Look at the tenses.
Winman- I see what you are saying, and based on those verses, I can can agree to the validity of your two possibilities. But...
John 10:28,29
And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.
...how does that reconcile with these verses with regard to the notion of eternal security?
I'm not advocating either view, I'm looking for a better understanding of this.
1. He shows how far persons may go in religion, and, after all, fall away, and perish for ever, v. 4, 5. (1.) They may be enlightened. Some of the ancients understand this of their being baptized; but it is rather to be understood of notional knowledge and common illumination, of which persons may have a great deal, and yet come short of heaven. Balaam was the man whose eyes were opened (Num. 24:3), and yet with his eyes opened he went down to utter darkness. (2.) They may taste of the heavenly gift, feel something of the efficacy of the Holy Spirit in his operations upon their souls, causing them to taste something of religion, and yet be like persons in the market, who taste of what they will not come up to the price of, and so but take a taste, and leave it. Persons may taste religion, and seem to like it, if they could have it upon easier terms than denying themselves, and taking up their cross, and following Christ. (3.) They may be made partakers of the Holy Ghost, that is, of his extraordinary and miraculous gifts; they may have cast out devils in the name of Christ, and done many other mighty works. Such gifts in the apostolic age were sometimes bestowed upon those who had no true saving grace. (4.) They may taste of the good word of God; they may have some relish of gospel doctrines, may hear the word with pleasure, may remember much of it, and talk well of it, and yet never be cast into the form and mould of it, nor have it dwelling richly in them. (5.) They may have tasted of the powers of the world to come; they may have been under strong impressions concerning heaven, and dread of going to hell. These lengths hypocrites may go, and, after all, turn apostates. Now hence observe, [1.] These great things are spoken here of those who may fall away; yet it is not here said of them that they were truly converted, or that they were justified; there is more in true saving grace than in all that is here said of apostates. [2.] This therefore is no proof of the final apostasy of true saints. These indeed may fall frequently and foully, but yet they will not totally nor finally from God; the purpose and the power of God, the purchase and the prayer of Christ, the promise of the gospel, the everlasting covenant that God has made with them, ordered in all things and sure, the indwelling of the Spirit, and the immortal seed of the word, these are their security. But the tree that has not these roots will not stand.
No, Hebrews 6 is speaking to the Jew also. Get in your mind that the book of Hebrews is to the Jew. To understand the book you have to take on the mind of a Jew and you need to understand Leviticus.
All that which is being mentioned is what the Jewish people had experienced under the law. if they reject salvation now that it has come they cannot be renewed again unto repentance.
If you hold that the passage means someone can lose their salvation then you also have to hold it means they cannot get saved again by the wording, but the passage is not speaking of a saved person. It is speaking of the Jewish people who had partook of the spirit in His working through them and all the miracles, they were enlightened by the word of God, they had tasted of the heavenly things with all the feasts and ceremonies and even the promise land. If they fall away now they can never again be renewed again unto repentance. That is why it does not say renewed to repentance again. The reason is that they have had it all and there is nothing left to show or give them so to conviince them and if they fall away now after all that they have seen and went through there is nothing more to show or tell them that would bring them back to repentance.
Agree. They had the word that could save. They had the faith that could save and the devil takes it away.
Then the second group has that same belief and they fell away in the time of temptation. Just becasue they had no root doesn't mean they never believed in the first place. The context tells us that they had a belief that could save.
I am completely aware that the book of Hebrews was addressed to the Hebrews. And I did not say a person can lose their salvation, I believe in the Preservation of the Saints, not Perserverance.
But again, this shows the unregenerate man can understand a great deal about salvation and the gospel, the fact they are sinners, that Jesus died for their sins and the need to trust him for salvation, and yet fall away in unbelief. They are not like a dead corpse whatsoever.
Jesus said they believed for awhile and fell away. I believe Jesus=freeatlast;1663204]Yes they had it, but it never took root. Thye were never saved. if thye had been they would have remained.
You're mixing two different contexts. 1 John2:19 has nothing to do with salvation. John is talking about anti-Christs. That is the context. They denied the Father and the Son. ( Verse 22)1John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Seems pretty clear to me. People who "believe" and then at some point don't believe were never saved to begin with.
Hebrews 10:26-29, (NKJV)
For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
but a certain fearful expectation of judgement, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
Jesus said they believed for awhile and fell away. I believe Jesus
You're mixing two different contexts. 1 John2:19 has nothing to do with salvation. John is talking about anti-Christs. That is the context. They denied the Father and the Son. ( Verse 22)
Luke 8 is talking about believers not anti-Christs.
Yes; both uses mean "believe." Plain and simple.I disagree. In the passage the two uses of pisteou have the same meaning.
Don't be disingenuous. 1) The word pisteou is used in both places. You're trying to have it mean one thing in one passage, and another thing in another passage. 2) You later use John 3:16 to substantiate your position; but you don't allow me to use James. Double standard?We're not talking about James.We need to stay in the context of how the word is used in Luke. Jesus tells us in Luke the precise meaning of "believe" and it is a saving faith that the devil removes in one group but in the other they have saving faith "for awhile" and then fall away.
Simple point: You're focusing on a word. The word previously used (pistis) is translated as faith, or that belief that results in a conviction. The word pisteou, on the other hand, is used throughout the bible to indicate a belief, sometimes having nothing to do with salvation.The woman had faith and was healed of her illness. She wasn't saved. Pistis is a form of pisteou but I don't see your point.
It's also the same word used in Matthew, Mark, John, Acts, Romans, and yes, even James. Are you trying to say that this word is referencing a saving faith every time it's used?Yes it is. John 3:16 "For God so love that world...that whoever believes (pisteuo) in him should not perish but have eternal life.
That's the same Greek word in the parable. They believed( pisteuo) for awhile and fell away.
Nah. You and I just disagree on what it says.Scripture disagrees with you.
1 John 2:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
Seems pretty clear to me. People who "believe" and then at some point don't believe were never saved to begin with.
=Don;1663268]Yes; both uses mean "believe." Plain and simple.
Jesus tells us in Luke what it means.Don't be disingenuous. 1) The word pisteou is used in both places. You're trying to have it mean one thing in one passage, and another thing in another passage.
Context is everything. Do you deny that in John 3:16 it means a saving faith? In James it can't mean a saving faith because the demons are not saved they simply believe.2) You later use John 3:16 to substantiate your position; but you don't allow me to use James. Double standard?
Again, in Luke 8 Jesus, our Lord and Savior, tells us what it means "lest they should believe and be saved." Jesus is telling us that "believe" in this context is a saving faith.Simple point: You're focusing on a word. The word previously used (pistis) is translated as faith, or that belief that results in a conviction. The word pisteou, on the other hand, is used throughout the bible to indicate a belief, sometimes having nothing to do with salvation.
Context defines how the word is to be understood and Jesus gives us the context in Luke 8It's also the same word used in Matthew, Mark, John, Acts, Romans, and yes, even James. Are you trying to say that this word is referencing a saving faith every time it's used?