Losing Your Salvation?

[Born Again Catholic]

Gekko

Come on now Gekko that is ridiculous smear campaign by secular sholars who ultimately go after protestant faiths. Especially If your are talking about Pious XII, he was smeared and he protected the Jews, after the war was over in fact the Chief Rabbi of Rome who worked with Pious XII during the war to save jews became Catholic with Pious XII as his God father.

There are many great testimonies of jews becoming catholic which they would not do if their was any grain of truth to your statement.

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Originally posted by Born Again Catholic:
We are in the kingdom. This is obvious from scripture but over the last 150 years many protestants have latched on to the man made rapture theology and gone away from their roots.

Uh Huh,

That's why things are going so well and the Knowledge of Christ is assaulted on every front?

And, have you ever heard of the bridegroom beating up the Bride before the Union?

I haven't...

You can go through the tribulation if you want...

But, I am looking for the Uppertaker not the Undertaker.

SMM

 

[J. Jump]

SMM is exactly right. The kingdom that is spoken of is not in existence today. It will be in existence when Christ takes the throne. He is currently not acting as King, but as High Priest.

Satan and his angels currently rule over the earth. But one day Christ will rapture the church and will judge believers at the Bema seat and then He will return with His bride and He will rule for 1,000 years with a rod of iron both from the physical earth and the heavenly sphere where Satan and his demons are currently ruling.

And during that rule it will be nothing like it is today.

Just think about it. How sad would it be if we were in fact living in the kingdom. This 'ole world doesn't resemble any picture of the kingdom that I can find in Scripture. Oh that that day would come quickly!

 

[Born Again Catholic]

If you deny the Kingdom you deny Christ as your King.

Is Christ not your King?

 

[gekko]

J.Jump and SMM are correct.

i think we are in a kingdom though - satan's kingdom. that's just my wording though. cause i mean - if this were Christ's kingdom right now - the tribulation would'a been past and satan in the lake of fire etc.

Christs kingdom? what. are you talkin physical or spiritual?

have you got any scriptural basis for your premis BAC?

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Luke 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

My heart... Christ's Home

SMM

 

[J. Jump]

If you deny the Kingdom you deny Christ as your King.

Is Christ not your King?

I'm not denying the kingdom. It's that it just hasn't been instituted yet and is something that we await.

Christ is currently acting as High Priest. Even though He is King He has not taken the throne yet. He is at the right hand of the Father not on the throne.

Plus the easiest way to see that Christ has not taken the reign of the earth yet is because His bride is not yet complete and there has been no wedding between His bride and Himself.

He can not rule the earth until that point. That's why the kingdom is yet future.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Just curious. How does this kingdom issue relate to losing ones salvation?

 

[Hope of Glory]

Satan is the ruler of this world today. I don't think Satan is going to rule in Chirst's Kindgom, now is he?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Joh 18:36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

If the kingdom one finds himself in, or the kingdom one looks for, is of or in this world, I might tend to say that in a sense it might be said one has lost, or never had a sure hope, of the kingdom.

[ May 13, 2006, 05:02 PM: Message edited by: Heavenly Pilgrim ]

 

[webdog]

Maybe you could have your father look at the Catholic Church, many jews find being Catholic is being a fullfilled jew.

Why would your steer him to a religion, and not Christ? This is a very commone trait amongst catholics...the church has all of the answers. Forget "looking into" any church. Look to Christ.

 

[Born Again Catholic]

Gek

I am heading out now but will respond soon, but do me the courtesy of answering my question is Jesus Christ your king?

 

[gekko]

well if Jesus Christ was not my king - would i be here today?

nope.

 

[JackRUS]

Originally posted by Heavenly Pilgrim:
There are some very interesting observations concerning salvation and ones assurance in this thread. Scripture is clear that our salvation is by faith. Is it not also true that if something is held by faith that it is also true that one cannot hold the same assurance by absolute knowledge? Does not the possibility of deception have to exist to hold salvation by faith?

It would seem to me that if one holds to the notion that one cannot end up somewhere other than what one believes, that deception is impossible and salvation of necessity must be held by absolute knowledge and not faith. This would be contrary to Scripture would it not, that clearly states our hope of eternal life is held in this world by faith, and without faith it is impossible to please God?

It appears to me that there is a lot of bantering back and forth about loosing your salvation or not loosing your salvation, when the questions should really focus on how do I know that I am not deceived, thinking myself to be a fit candidate for heaven when in fact I might not be.

My question to the list would be this. How can one be absolutely sure that they in fact have heaven as their sure hope and that they are not just deceived?

Heavenly Pilgrim

"For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." Rom. 8:14

"The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:" Rom. 8:16

"We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death." 1 John 3:14

"He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that
ye may believe on the name of the Son of God." 1 John 5:12-13

"I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine." John 10:14

 

[JackRUS]

Originally posted by Born Again Catholic:
If you deny the Kingdom you deny Christ as your King.

Is Christ not your King?

"The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.
The LORD hath sworn, and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchizedek.
The Lord at thy right hand shall strike through kings in the day of his wrath.
He shall judge among the heathen, he shall fill the places with the dead bodies (Rev. 19:16-21); he shall wound the heads over many countries." Ps. 110-106

That hasn't happened yet as evidenced by the world around us (Mt. 24:37).

 

[JackRUS]

Originally posted by Born Again Catholic:
Gek

I am heading out now but will respond soon, but do me the courtesy of answering my question is Jesus Christ your king?

I have a short question for you.

If you were to die today and stand before the King and He were to ask you "Why should I let you into my heaven?", what would you tell Him?

 

[JackRUS]

Originally posted by Brother Bob:
Well faith is the substance of things Hoped for the evidence of things not seen. So it seems to me that Hope is made up of faith if it is the substance then ever how much faith you have increases your Hope, therefore giving more substance to your knowledge.

One must know that the term 'hope' has gone through a change since it was translated in the King James. Hope used to mean to wait for an assured prize or thing to happen.

If you do a study of the Greek in both "hope" in Rom. 15:4,13 and "hoped" in Hebrews 11:3, you will see that the term means complete assurance.

It doesn't mean "Gee, I sure hope I win the lotto with this ticket."

 

[Brother Bob]

Well faith is the substance of things Hoped for the evidence of things not seen

Well maybe not so fast there Jack; take out (substance of things Hoped for) and it leaves you
"Faith is the evidence of things not seen." So it still is ever how much Faith you have is how much evidence you have, therefore is evidence of how much Knowledge you have." If Faith is the evidence then it all still comes back to Faith,

(Wonder why the Scripture was in the Bible if it wasn't telling you your Hope depends on the substance of your faith. This is why I am not so quick to jump from the KJV into whosoever wants to translate.

)

So, "Gee, you missed it again."

Anyway the translation I found says it means "Hope". Definition = a sure Hope
(Well Christ is our Hope and He is a sure Hope, so don't see where it changes anything. I guess you could hunt long enough and find something to fit your translation though.)

[ May 13, 2006, 07:34 PM: Message edited by: Brother Bob ]

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Hello JackRus,
Thanks for your response. I always appreciate Scripture, but when conversing with men their ideas as to what exactly they believe they mean is necessary for meaningful discussion in most cases. The scriptures you gave did not address the issue I have been trying to address, which is deception, as I see it.

The point I am trying to make is the clear distinction between absolute knowledge and the faith by which we “know” of our eternal hope.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by J. Jump:
SMM is exactly right. The kingdom that is spoken of is not in existence today. It will be in existence when Christ takes the throne. He is currently not acting as King, but as High Priest.

Satan and his angels currently rule over the earth.

Careful - I am about to agree with these guys!

Dan 7
11 ""Then I kept looking because of the sound of the boastful words which the horn was speaking; I kept looking until the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and given to the burning fire.
12 ""As for the rest of the beasts, their dominion was taken away, but an extension of life was granted to them for an appointed period of time.
13 ""I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him.
14 ""And to Him was given dominion, Glory and a kingdom, That all the peoples, nations and men of every language Might serve Him. His dominion is an everlasting dominion Which will not pass away; And His kingdom is one Which will not be destroyed.

Dan 7
25 "He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.
26 "But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever.
27 "Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.'

As 1Cor 15 says and as Rev 19 shows - Christ does not receive His kingdom until the end. As Dan 7 shows only THEN do the saints inherit the kingdom.

In Christ,

Bob