Losing Your Salvation?

[Brother Bob]

All men have a measure of faith, enough to believe there is a God but some have had their Conscious seared with a hot iron or turned over to a reprobate mind to believe a lie and be damned.
Also HP: You mention a difficult passage of Scripture here. Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

It says to fall away and according to your veiw it stays the same. To fall away you would of had to have it to fall from it. Now they could fall in the OT for they did not have the Holy Ghost inwardly. They worshiped God in the flesh where now God seeks such to worship him in Spirit and Truth. I don't believe in a fall and if I know anything, I know I will never return to the earthly things and leave the fold.

Examine ourselves? The Scripture says your faith shall be tried so I don't think you have any choice but to examine yourselves but if you have the "shield of faith" you can ward off the firery darts of the devil and as I preach and believe if you are not on the Rock (Christ) something will get you. (either money or a woman)

As far as assurance unto the end? Well then we trade our faith for absolute knowledge. Amen


Romans, chapter 12
"3": For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BobRyanoes their "assurance" get retro-deleted?


HP: God has not allowed us to see things from His perspective of absolute knowledge, but has hemmed us in to the realm and boundaries of faith. If one leaves their spouse ten years from now, does that mean that their love now then gets retro-deleted? To me all that is proved, is that one has left the state of love for the state of selfishness, and unless repentance is invoked, love is not then evident. What good is love in the past if not continued in until the end? Eze 33:12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.
13 When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.
14 Again, when I say unto the wicked, Thou shalt surely die; if he turn from his sin, and do that which is lawful and right;
15 If the wicked restore the pledge, give again that he had robbed, walk in the statutes of life, without committing iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die.
16 None of his sins that he hath committed shall be mentioned unto him: he hath done that which is lawful and right; he shall surely live.
17 Yet the children of thy people say, The way of the Lord is not equal: but as for them, their way is not equal.
18 When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.
19 But if the wicked turn from his wickedness, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall live thereby.

We live in the here and now. Our job is to try our best, with the help of the Holy Spirit, to enlighten those without hope or false hopes of their need or delusion. If we are going to try and pluck a brand from the burning, we are going to have to present the truth in such a way as to enable the individual to see themselves as they really are in this world. Either they are lost or they have a solid faith in Jesus Christ. My task is not just tell them that if they are eventually lost that they never were saved. What good would that do anyone? I believe it far more sensible to warn those that are unruly of the impending doom that awaits them if they do not have a change of heart towards their sin looking in faith to Jesus Christ, and walking subsequently circumspectly as overcomers in this present world through the strength provided us by the Holy Spirit. The question to ask would be, is your heart right with God? Are the intents formed in your heart and the actions subsequent to those intents found to be consistent with ones faith, or is one deceived as to the real direction of ones will and their standing before God.

It is useless rhetoric, as well as being contrary to examples in Scripture and real life, to even suggest that if one is found outside of Christ at the judgment that they had never been saved or that they had never had faith, would you not agree?

 

[JackRUS]

Originally posted by Heavenly Pilgrim:
Hello JackRus,
Thanks for your response. I always appreciate Scripture, but when conversing with men their ideas as to what exactly they believe they mean is necessary for meaningful discussion in most cases. The scriptures you gave did not address the issue I have been trying to address, which is deception, as I see it.

The point I am trying to make is the clear distinction between absolute knowledge and the faith by which we “know” of our eternal hope.

And that my friend is your problem. You need to rather trust the Scriptures and not look for signs or collaborating knowledge (unles you like a good testimony). The absolute knowledge comes from accepting the Scripture as being God breathed and consider the source.

Jesus told Thomas that blessed are those that have not seen and yet believe.

Rom. 15:4 or John 12:48? Which do you prefer?

 

[Brother Bob]

HP you washed over all the Scriptures I gave you telling you that OSOS without giving any response. If you believe there will be people in the judgement that were once saved but lost it then that is your belief but not mine. I believe in a God that is able "my Grace is sufficient to keep thee". And again, if they do have it and lose it which the Scripture says is impossible to renew them again then they are gone forever. Renew means you had it at one time. Fall means you had it at one time and fell. There are plenty of people who believe you can be in today out tomorrow, in next day out the next etc, but I am not one of them. It says "whosoever believeth in me and is baptized (shall) be saved. Some of the "saved" Scriptures says shall have everlasting life. Well that don't give room for a fall. Amen

Seems to me you are using Scriptures under the Law when they were in the flesh but that is what Jesus came to change. Oh, you backsliding Israel, return unto me for I am your God. Well, we are not of them who walk after the flesh, but we walk after the Spirit. Amen

Now, when it talks of the Law being fulfilled you hit the nail on the head.

 

[Brother Bob]

John, chapter 6

70": Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

"71": He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Did Judas really fall? Or did Christ chose him for what he was so he would betray Him?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Brother Bob:All men have a measure of faith, enough to believe there is a God but some have had their Conscious seared with a hot iron or turned over to a reprobate mind to believe a lie and be damned.

HP: That is very true. Just the same unless the Holy Spirit has been withdrawn from them, it is not that they have no conscience, but rather that they have developed the uncanny ability to act ‘as if though’ they have no conscience. They willfully reject the monitions of conscience and have learned to act as if though it is not speaking to them.


BB:Also HP: You mention a difficult passage of Scripture here. Heb 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

It says to fall away and according to your veiw it stays the same. To fall away you would of had to have it to fall from it.

HP: I cannot follow you here. I do not remember stating or implying that anything ‘stayed the same.’ Possibly you might need to point that out with a quote of mine so I can rethink it if in fact that is what I stated or my logic implied. I have tried to separate losing faith as opposed to losing salvation. Salvation encompasses ones faith, ones walk and the final judgment. You may lose your faith in this world, but salvation, in any complete sense of the word, is not ‘lost’ until we stand before Him in judgment, and are found outside of Christ’s atonement. Where hope remains all is not lost, not yet at least. The only exception would be if the Holy Spirit has been withdrawn, which is a clear possibility in the case exemplified by Heb. 6:6.


BB:I don't believe in a fall and if I know anything, I know I will never return to the earthly things and leave the fold.

HP: Praise the Lord for your steadfast hope and desire to stay true to the Lord! It will take that kind of steadfast fortitude to make it in.

Forgive me for not addressing any Scriptures you posted. If you have one that you believe directly supports OSAS, post it again and we will look at it directly.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JackRus: And that my friend is your problem. You need to rather trust the Scriptures and not look for signs or collaborating knowledge (unles you like a good testimony). The absolute knowledge comes from accepting the Scripture as being God breathed and consider the source.


HP: Well, if we desire to overcome the enemy, it is going to be in part due to our testimony. I would think that a good one would be in order. Re 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.”

JR: The absolute knowledge comes from accepting the Scripture as being God breathed and consider the source.

HP: If you arrive at absolute knowledge “concerning your faith” as for it being impossible to lose, you have surpassed the bounds of faith Scripture states it is bound within. Without faith it is impossible (in this world) to please God.

JR: Jesus told Thomas that blessed are those that have not seen and yet believe.

HP: I agree.

JR:Rom. 15:4 or John 12:48? Which do you prefer?

HP:I try hard to never prefer one Scripture over the next. My goal is to harmonize all Scripture to the best of my abilities using every avenue of truth God places at my disposal. I may not always end up with absolute certainties within the corpus of my doctrinal beliefs, but I do try my best to eliminate all clear absurdities.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Brother Bob: Did Judas really fall? Or did Christ chose him for what he was so he would betray Him?

HP: Why does it have to be either or? As for Judas, I believe he betrayed the Lord of his own volition. The guilt and remorse of Judas signifies to me his belief that he could have done something other than what he did under the very same set of circumstances.

As for him falling, you yourself, as I recall, stated that if one falls one has to have fallen from something, did you not? (forgive me if that was not you or if my memory fails me.

 

[Brother Bob]

HP;I believe it simply means that if one is in a state, and remains in a state, of rejecting their only hope, then ‘in that state of rejection’ it is impossible to be renewed.

BBIf I understand the above post it is saying that a person never had anything to fall from but remained in the same state he started with. if so this does not refer to Heb; 6:6 which stated a person falling. Yes I said he would of had to fall from something and I should of added "if possible". Judas was chosen because he was the devil so how could he fall from anything, he was a hypocrit.

1 Corinthians, chapter 1
"6": Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:

"7": So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:

"8": Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

"9": God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.


Ephesians, chapter 1
13": In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,


2 Peter, chapter 1
5": And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

"6": And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;

"7": And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.

"8": For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.

"9": But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

"10": Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

2 Timothy, chapter 1
12": For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

"13": Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

"14": That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

Maybe I am misunderstanding you if so I am sorry but seems now you are separating the faith from the Salvation and I don't know how you can do that. To believe in a fall you would have to believe in a weak Holy Ghost according to the last Scripture I just posted.

BTW, I like your format.

 

[gekko]

salvation is a choice. no?

so that being the case. one can chose to have salvation - and then after that choose not to. no?

 

[Brother Bob]

Agree gekko; short but sweet.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

BB:1 Corinthians, chapter 1
"6": Even as the testimony of Christ was confirmed in you:
"7": So that ye come behind in no gift; waiting for the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ:
"8": Who shall also confirm you unto the end, that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
"9": God is faithful, by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

Ephesians, chapter 1
13":
2 Peter, chapter 1
5": etc.
HP> These are wonderful promises of assurance and direction to the believer walking in the light to continue walking in the light as He is in the light. Thank God for them. Just these same promises can be used to send a strong delusion to the one seeking fire insurance whose heart is not stayed upon God, but is only desirous of doing their own selfish thing and yet desire to entertain a hope of eternal life. It is this second group, that takes for themselves promise meant for the obedient, that are being deceived by the very words that should be our sure confidence of help from on high in time of need.

The promises are to sincere believers. We are also told how those believers walk. If we are walking even as Christ walked, we indeed can take those assurances for ourselves. If we are not, we may be doing so to our peril.


BB: "10": Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

HP: I know of no bigger word than the two letter word “if.”

BB:2 Timothy, chapter 1
12":

HP: If we desire Paul’s confidence we are going to have to have his walk and conscience. “1Co 4:4 For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.

The most important thing we have to offer the world in our discussions may in fact be the attitude exhibited when we disagree. I appreciate the way you and others on this list have conducted themselves. Thank you all.

 

[Brother Bob]

HP;Thank you all.

BB; God Bless, And I think your if and those who are not really christian are called hypocrits. Kept me out a long time for that is one thing I did not want to be.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Gekko:salvation is a choice. no?

so that being the case. one can chose to have salvation - and then after that choose not to. no?

HP: I would agree that one can choose not to continue that which one has chosen to enter into, as in the case of the possibility of rejecting and walking away from salvation by faith. It is good to remember that things which are a distinct possibility never ‘have’ to happen, neither should the believer walk around fearful in the sense of constant worry that one will. Just as I have a healthy fear ‘in a sense’ of having a car accident, I do not drive around clutching the wheel exclaiming, “I am going to have a wreck! I am going to have a wreck!” Instead, I try to exert as much caution as possible, drive carefully and defensibly, and pray for protection everyday.

In my walk with the Lord, I honestly study to show myself approved, try and put in good things into my life while keeping myself from evil influences the best I can, and trust in the Lord with all my heart to guide and correct me when I fail. I do not worry about falling, but I have a healthy fear of the consequence that will await me if in fact I turn my back on the grace that has been afforded me.

 

[Brother Bob]

Ever Christian I have every known has said "why" did I not come to the Lord sooner?
Sorry HP; I just don't believe in backsliding, falling. I believe we are kept by the Power of God ready to be revealed in the last day.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Brother Bob: Ever Christian I have every known has said "why" did I not come to the Lord sooner?
Sorry HP; I just don't believe in backsliding, falling. I believe we are kept by the Power of God ready to be revealed in the last day.

HP: The reason I did not come to the Lord sooner was that I was enjoying the fruits of my selfish ways more than I desired to follow the Lord. The Lord had to teach me a short lesson in the brevity of life to get my attention. Thank God for that lesson.
So you disagree with me about OSAS? We agree about being kept by the Lord. I just believe that when we are being kept by the Lord it is not without the cooperation of our will and it is conditioned upon staying true and obedient to the end. Staying true involves my will. It is not ‘because of my will,’ but neither is it ‘apart from’ my will.
Is it your honest goal and intention to please the Lord in your walk with Him? Have you pledged your heart and life to His service? If so, give me your hand! You’re my brother in the Lord.

 

[Brother Bob]

I gave him my body as a living sacrifice which was my reasonable service. I gave him my heart and soul. I gave him my life. He is my all and all. I have been at deaths door and cried for the Lord to let me go for the pain I was suffering. I could feel that peace was so close but I could not reach it so I prayed to die. It was not His will though and I continue on. I have been ordained for over 33 years and a Moderator/Pastor for over 25. I have been at the church I Pastor now for 17 years. He has led me through 2 open heart surgeries, 2 neck artery surgeries, double hernia with mesh in my stomach to hold my insides in and I still give Him the praise and thank Him everyday for what I have left of this old body of mine, but the best is yet to come, amen and sorry I rambled on and on but just wanted to say even with all our troubles we still praise our Lord.

You certainly have my hand in the Lord.

 

[JackRUS]

Originally posted by gekko:
salvation is a choice. no?

so that being the case. one can chose to have salvation - and then after that choose not to. no?

No. And that is because when you become a Christian you do indeed make a choice, but God makes one as well. And it is His choice that seals the deal.

And the reason is because you become a new creation in Christ (2 Cor. 5:17). Once this creation occurs you are this new creation. Similarly you could not decide that you don't like being human and would now like to be a eagle since you like to fly. You're stuck brother.

 

[gekko]

lol

 

[SpiritualMadMan]

Originally posted by JackRUS:
No. And that is because when you become a Christian you do indeed make a choice, but God makes one as well. And it is His choice that seals the deal.

And the reason is because you become a new creation in Christ (2 Cor. 5:17). Once this creation occurs you are this new creation. Similarly you could not decide that you don't like being human and would now like to be a eagle since you like to fly. You're stuck brother.

And, yet we are warned that salt can lose it's savor?

And, grafted in branches can be broken out?

While I, in true sanity, can't for the life of me think of a reason to do so...

Clearly scripture at least warns of the theoretical possibility of becoming:

Lukewarm and spewed out...

Savorless and Cast out on the dung heap...

Or broken off, and, thrown into the fire...

The Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom...

And, it is wise to serve Jesus with one's Whole Heart...

Not at all easy, IMHO, but the 'risk' exists for those who like to use Grace as an excuse to sin?

Maybe?

SMM