Loss/Forfeiture of Salvation

[Tyler]

Hello everyone,

I've got quite a long post here so please bear with me. Below I've written a detailed account of my salvation and current spiritual state as of the last few years. My question I wish to pose is regarding loss or forfeiture of salvation.

1. Have I lost/forfeited my salvation?
2. If so, what do I do now?


I'll start from the beginning to try and make everything as clear as possible. Sorry if this is super long.

I grew up in a Christian household and had a false conversion experience when I was around 5. One where I aimed to please my parents but there was no change in my heart or life. Fast forward to when I was 10. I went to a multi-day retreat with my youth group and was convicted that my previous confession was not true and that I did not know Christ. I responded to the gospel and saw a change in my desires and heart. A hatred for sin and a desire to live for Christ. Shortly there after I was exposed to pornography for the first time. The behavior got out of hand and I eventually became addicted. I would become highly irritable or physically nauseous if I was not able to view pornography that day. Eventually my parents discovered what was going on and removed the internet from my access. I saw a renewal in my relationship with Christ within the following years. A renewed desire for him. Desire to be in his Word. A desire to resist sin and follow him.
This continued up until college where, after a breakup, I became depressed, isolated and turned back to pornography to medicate. Eventually, after a year or so, the Lord brought me to repentance and I found renewed spiritual growth and desire for him again. I found a good community of guys pursuing Christ at my church that pushed one another to follow Christ. The Lord grew in me a heart for evangelism and missions over the course of those few years.
However, once I graduated from college, I was unable to find a job and had to move back in with my parents in my old hometown. I lost my church and community and was unable to find another community that seemed to be serious about serving Christ. Once again, I became depressed and lonely turning to pornography again to medicate. The addiction became full blown again for years. Constantly being convicted by the Spirit to repent and hearing the Lord's voice in the matter through the Word. Repentance was off and on. Repenting well at some points but being isolated and continuing to fall back into sin. It was a constant struggle and I hated myself for being involved in this sin. I could see that it was affecting my relationship with Christ but I was seemingly powerless to stop the behavior. I was talking to my mentor who was the missions pastor at my church about going to seminary, as I had felt in the past that the Lord was leading me to missions. He encouraged me to go knowing that I was struggling with sexual sin. I was also teaching a weekly Bible study at the time.
Two years ago, after my first semester of seminary I had fallen to sexual temptation and viewed pornography that night but something terrifying happened. I felt no conviction or remorse. Just totally empty and unfeeling. It scared me half to death. My heart felt so hard and unfeeling. This terrified me in my mind but not in my heart. It just felt dull and numb. The next day I was off work so I spent the whole day seeking the Lord and trying to figure out what had happened. My heart felt uncaring and unrepentant. At one point that morning I remember feeling something being torn out of my heart and feeling as though there was a void in my heart. That place where I used to go in the depths of my heart to humble myself and draw near to Christ was inaccessible now. I couldn't feel the brokenness or godly sorrow I once felt about my sin. I felt completely stripped of the joy of knowing Christ replaced with tangible feelings of terror, separation and confusion. I went to the Word to spend time with the Lord and it was like someone had turned out the lights. My eyes looked over the passages that I had read and underlined so many times and they made no sense. I remember thinking, "This looks so stupid. Why does anyone believe this?" 1 Corinthians 1:18 immediately popped into my mind. This sent me spiraling. Non stop panic attacks. I couldn't sleep, couldn't eat, couldn't think straight. I spent days and nights crying out to the Lord that he would not take the Spirit from me and that he would allow me to return to relationship with him. I saw a stark change in my mind and heart over that time. Not only did the Word no longer make sense or resonate with my heart, I couldn't remember who the Lord was. I couldn't remember my life with the Lord, what he had done in my life or why I had been confident I was a believer. I couldn't remember why I loved God or why I should worship him. I couldn't even remember my testimony. My past with the Lord was hazy and felt like thinking back to a dream. It was as though, in a moment, my faith dried up. I remember crying out over and over again, "Lord, please don't do this." I knew I had not desired to be separated from Christ but it intensely seemed to be so. I didn't know what I believed anymore and the things I still knew felt false. I cried out to the Lord, but my heart was so hard my repentance didn't feel real. I wasn't really broken. Even my fear was no longer of being separated from God, but of condemnation. My heart had become extremely resistant to the Lord and I felt extreme rage toward him. There was no love for the Lord in my heart anymore. (And even 2 years later, I see no movement of the Spirit, no change in heart or anything. I don't see the Lord rearranging my heart and moving my desires. Just deadness in my heart.)
This sent me spiraling even harder. I began meeting with close brothers in Christ and explaining the situation confessing what I had done. However, nothing changed. I eventually got the idea that I had become apostate and that there was no way to return to Christ or that I had become like Esau and was unable to repent. Then the thought, "If there's no hope of restoration, and I'm doomed to hell, I should go now while I only have 20 something years of sin to pay for than wait until I'm 60 and have 60 years of sinning to pay for." At this point I was seeing Christian therapists who were also trying to walk me through this time. Eventually, things hit super rock bottom and my psychologist said that I needed to check into a mental institution and go under suicide watch. My time there was filled with all the same. Not sleeping, barely eating and panic attacks. Strangely enough, I ran into a woman who was also a patient there that was leading a Bible study each night before bed. She was a pastor's wife who had also had a mental breakdown. I explained my situation and she said she believed I had not yet lost my salvation. Eventually, I was released and have continued to struggle with the reality of what I'm experiencing.

My big question is what to do now. I think I've come to the point where I can't deny my loss of relationship with Christ and my udder lack of the presence of the Holy Spirit. I understand completely that, even though I never purposefully and willfully chose to have no part of Christ, I nevertheless completely deserve my condemnation. What is the best course of action now? What can I be confident is most God glorifying thing for me to do right now?

Thanks for reading if you made it this far.

 

[Deacon]

Tyler, I really appreciate your truthful openness about your struggles, I continue to have some of the same ones myself.
First off, God knows your struggles even better than you know yourself, and he still loves you.
Read the life story of King David. Even with his infidelity and his murderous attempts to hide his sin, God looked upon his heart and raised him up.
The psalms relate similar cries of anguish, “God, where are you?”.
Yeah, we sin, sometimes we even greave the Holy Spirit within us, but he is our Father and will never let us go.

You have written so much.
A general posting board isn’t the best place to open up your personal life.

Might I suggest you make an appointment with your pastor, he could hold you accountable in ways we could not.
He would be more able to deal with the questions and concerns you have and could point you in the right direction.

Rob

 

[37818]

What do you understand 1 John 5:1 to claim? What do you understand Jesus to claim in John 6:37? John 6:39? John 10:28-30? Now 1 John 5:12 in light of John 6:37? Now if you are or were yet lost, what would be the reason according to 2 Corinthians 4:3? What does Hebrews 10:17 promise regarding forgiveness? What does John tell us about agreeing with God for forgivess anyway? Note the promise of being cleansed (1 John 1:9 - 1 John 2:1).

 

[FriendofSpurgeon]

So sorry to hear of what you are going through. I think Deacon gave sound advice about speaking with your pastor.

Your post reminds me of a couple of things. One is a quote from Philip Yancey -- "Grace does not depend on what we have done for God but rather what God has done for us. Ask people what they must do to get to heaven and most reply, "Be good." Jesus' stories contradict that answer. All we must do is cry, "Help!""

Another is a song by Crowder - "There's hope for the hopeless and all those who've strayed. Come sit at the table, come taste the grace. There's rest for the weary, rest that endures. Earth has no sorrow that heaven can't cure."

Bottom line, your salvation (or mine or anyone else's) does not depend upon how good we are after we accept Christ. So keep on keeping on. Keep praying, keep seeking God, keep reading the Bible, etc. Indeed, earth has no sorrow that heaven can't cure. You are in my prayers. FOS

 

[utilyan]

Hello everyone,

I've got quite a long post here so please bear with me. Below I've written a detailed account of my salvation and current spiritual state as of the last few years. My question I wish to pose is regarding loss or forfeiture of salvation.

1. Have I lost/forfeited my salvation?
2. If so, what do I do now?


I'll start from the beginning to try and make everything as clear as possible. Sorry if this is super long.

I grew up in a Christian household and had a false conversion experience when I was around 5. One where I aimed to please my parents but there was no change in my heart or life. Fast forward to when I was 10. I went to a multi-day retreat with my youth group and was convicted that my previous confession was not true and that I did not know Christ. I responded to the gospel and saw a change in my desires and heart. A hatred for sin and a desire to live for Christ. Shortly there after I was exposed to pornography for the first time. The behavior got out of hand and I eventually became addicted. I would become highly irritable or physically nauseous if I was not able to view pornography that day. Eventually my parents discovered what was going on and removed the internet from my access. I saw a renewal in my relationship with Christ within the following years. A renewed desire for him. Desire to be in his Word. A desire to resist sin and follow him.
This continued up until college where, after a breakup, I became depressed, isolated and turned back to pornography to medicate. Eventually, after a year or so, the Lord brought me to repentance and I found renewed spiritual growth and desire for him again. I found a good community of guys pursuing Christ at my church that pushed one another to follow Christ. The Lord grew in me a heart for evangelism and missions over the course of those few years.
However, once I graduated from college, I was unable to find a job and had to move back in with my parents in my old hometown. I lost my church and community and was unable to find another community that seemed to be serious about serving Christ. Once again, I became depressed and lonely turning to pornography again to medicate. The addiction became full blown again for years. Constantly being convicted by the Spirit to repent and hearing the Lord's voice in the matter through the Word. Repentance was off and on. Repenting well at some points but being isolated and continuing to fall back into sin. It was a constant struggle and I hated myself for being involved in this sin. I could see that it was affecting my relationship with Christ but I was seemingly powerless to stop the behavior. I was talking to my mentor who was the missions pastor at my church about going to seminary, as I had felt in the past that the Lord was leading me to missions. He encouraged me to go knowing that I was struggling with sexual sin. I was also teaching a weekly Bible study at the time.
Two years ago, after my first semester of seminary I had fallen to sexual temptation and viewed pornography that night but something terrifying happened. I felt no conviction or remorse. Just totally empty and unfeeling. It scared me half to death. My heart felt so hard and unfeeling. This terrified me in my mind but not in my heart. It just felt dull and numb. The next day I was off work so I spent the whole day seeking the Lord and trying to figure out what had happened. My heart felt uncaring and unrepentant. At one point that morning I remember feeling something being torn out of my heart and feeling as though there was a void in my heart. That place where I used to go in the depths of my heart to humble myself and draw near to Christ was inaccessible now. I couldn't feel the brokenness or godly sorrow I once felt about my sin. I felt completely stripped of the joy of knowing Christ replaced with tangible feelings of terror, separation and confusion. I went to the Word to spend time with the Lord and it was like someone had turned out the lights. My eyes looked over the passages that I had read and underlined so many times and they made no sense. I remember thinking, "This looks so stupid. Why does anyone believe this?" 1 Corinthians 1:18 immediately popped into my mind. This sent me spiraling. Non stop panic attacks. I couldn't sleep, couldn't eat, couldn't think straight. I spent days and nights crying out to the Lord that he would not take the Spirit from me and that he would allow me to return to relationship with him. I saw a stark change in my mind and heart over that time. Not only did the Word no longer make sense or resonate with my heart, I couldn't remember who the Lord was. I couldn't remember my life with the Lord, what he had done in my life or why I had been confident I was a believer. I couldn't remember why I loved God or why I should worship him. I couldn't even remember my testimony. My past with the Lord was hazy and felt like thinking back to a dream. It was as though, in a moment, my faith dried up. I remember crying out over and over again, "Lord, please don't do this." I knew I had not desired to be separated from Christ but it intensely seemed to be so. I didn't know what I believed anymore and the things I still knew felt false. I cried out to the Lord, but my heart was so hard my repentance didn't feel real. I wasn't really broken. Even my fear was no longer of being separated from God, but of condemnation. My heart had become extremely resistant to the Lord and I felt extreme rage toward him. There was no love for the Lord in my heart anymore. (And even 2 years later, I see no movement of the Spirit, no change in heart or anything. I don't see the Lord rearranging my heart and moving my desires. Just deadness in my heart.)
This sent me spiraling even harder. I began meeting with close brothers in Christ and explaining the situation confessing what I had done. However, nothing changed. I eventually got the idea that I had become apostate and that there was no way to return to Christ or that I had become like Esau and was unable to repent. Then the thought, "If there's no hope of restoration, and I'm doomed to hell, I should go now while I only have 20 something years of sin to pay for than wait until I'm 60 and have 60 years of sinning to pay for." At this point I was seeing Christian therapists who were also trying to walk me through this time. Eventually, things hit super rock bottom and my psychologist said that I needed to check into a mental institution and go under suicide watch. My time there was filled with all the same. Not sleeping, barely eating and panic attacks. Strangely enough, I ran into a woman who was also a patient there that was leading a Bible study each night before bed. She was a pastor's wife who had also had a mental breakdown. I explained my situation and she said she believed I had not yet lost my salvation. Eventually, I was released and have continued to struggle with the reality of what I'm experiencing.

My big question is what to do now. I think I've come to the point where I can't deny my loss of relationship with Christ and my udder lack of the presence of the Holy Spirit. I understand completely that, even though I never purposefully and willfully chose to have no part of Christ, I nevertheless completely deserve my condemnation. What is the best course of action now? What can I be confident is most God glorifying thing for me to do right now?

Thanks for reading if you made it this far.

God loves you just the way you are.

You don't need a "how to" guide on protecting yourself from God. You need God to protect you from this "how to" guide you are making up in your head.


Life is not about beating you up.

God doesn't put a gun to your head and asks "do you love me?"

The horror you putting yourself through is a hell already.


There is no sin that you do where God is like okay I had enough of this guy.

The problem is SIN itself is punking us around by negative motives we don't deserve to be a slave to.

 

[Rockson]

Thanks for reading if you made it this far.

Look up all scriptures about God's love and forgiveness which you could find dozens of them. Read them and maybe record them, listen to them night and day until the truth of them sinks down in your heart. I suppose other Christians have told you that the Bible says this and that is that true? It seems I've read your testimony on another site and if not yours one exactly similar. The bottom line is ARE YOUR WILLING to be comforted? That would mean casting down wrong thoughts and I'm talking about discouraging thoughts not in line with the word of God. Here's one Bible verse,

Isaiah 55:7
Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts; let him return to the Lord, and He will have mercy on him; and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon.

So God said return unto him. Are you willing to believe the truth that you can? Are you one sadly who believes God would tell you to do something that you're not able to do? When God says I will have mercy on you will you choose to embrace once and for all that he's telling the truth and that his word has integrity? If he said like he did that he will abundantly pardon, not just pardon or forgive but abundantly so will you lock into boldness and courage and do what he also said to come boldly to the throne of grace and find grace and mercy in your time of need? Heb 4:16 You say well you don't feel a boldness and confidence to do that. Doesn't matter what you feel. God through the Apostle Paul STILL told you to come boldly to receive his grace. The question is though will you do it?

 

[HankD]

Hello everyone,

I've got quite a long post here so please bear with me. Below I've written a detailed account of my salvation and current spiritual state as of the last few years. My question I wish to pose is regarding loss or forfeiture of salvation.

1. Have I lost/forfeited my salvation?
2. If so, what do I do now?


I'll start from the beginning to try and make everything as clear as possible. Sorry if this is super long.

I grew up in a Christian household and had a false conversion experience when I was around 5. One where I aimed to please my parents but there was no change in my heart or life. Fast forward to when I was 10. I went to a multi-day retreat with my youth group and was convicted that my previous confession was not true and that I did not know Christ. I responded to the gospel and saw a change in my desires and heart. A hatred for sin and a desire to live for Christ. Shortly there after I was exposed to pornography for the first time. The behavior got out of hand and I eventually became addicted. I would become highly irritable or physically nauseous if I was not able to view pornography that day. Eventually my parents discovered what was going on and removed the internet from my access. I saw a renewal in my relationship with Christ within the following years. A renewed desire for him. Desire to be in his Word. A desire to resist sin and follow him.
This continued up until college where, after a breakup, I became depressed, isolated and turned back to pornography to medicate. Eventually, after a year or so, the Lord brought me to repentance and I found renewed spiritual growth and desire for him again. I found a good community of guys pursuing Christ at my church that pushed one another to follow Christ. The Lord grew in me a heart for evangelism and missions over the course of those few years.
However, once I graduated from college, I was unable to find a job and had to move back in with my parents in my old hometown. I lost my church and community and was unable to find another community that seemed to be serious about serving Christ. Once again, I became depressed and lonely turning to pornography again to medicate. The addiction became full blown again for years. Constantly being convicted by the Spirit to repent and hearing the Lord's voice in the matter through the Word. Repentance was off and on. Repenting well at some points but being isolated and continuing to fall back into sin. It was a constant struggle and I hated myself for being involved in this sin. I could see that it was affecting my relationship with Christ but I was seemingly powerless to stop the behavior. I was talking to my mentor who was the missions pastor at my church about going to seminary, as I had felt in the past that the Lord was leading me to missions. He encouraged me to go knowing that I was struggling with sexual sin. I was also teaching a weekly Bible study at the time.
Two years ago, after my first semester of seminary I had fallen to sexual temptation and viewed pornography that night but something terrifying happened. I felt no conviction or remorse. Just totally empty and unfeeling. It scared me half to death. My heart felt so hard and unfeeling. This terrified me in my mind but not in my heart. It just felt dull and numb. The next day I was off work so I spent the whole day seeking the Lord and trying to figure out what had happened. My heart felt uncaring and unrepentant. At one point that morning I remember feeling something being torn out of my heart and feeling as though there was a void in my heart. That place where I used to go in the depths of my heart to humble myself and draw near to Christ was inaccessible now. I couldn't feel the brokenness or godly sorrow I once felt about my sin. I felt completely stripped of the joy of knowing Christ replaced with tangible feelings of terror, separation and confusion. I went to the Word to spend time with the Lord and it was like someone had turned out the lights. My eyes looked over the passages that I had read and underlined so many times and they made no sense. I remember thinking, "This looks so stupid. Why does anyone believe this?" 1 Corinthians 1:18 immediately popped into my mind. This sent me spiraling. Non stop panic attacks. I couldn't sleep, couldn't eat, couldn't think straight. I spent days and nights crying out to the Lord that he would not take the Spirit from me and that he would allow me to return to relationship with him. I saw a stark change in my mind and heart over that time. Not only did the Word no longer make sense or resonate with my heart, I couldn't remember who the Lord was. I couldn't remember my life with the Lord, what he had done in my life or why I had been confident I was a believer. I couldn't remember why I loved God or why I should worship him. I couldn't even remember my testimony. My past with the Lord was hazy and felt like thinking back to a dream. It was as though, in a moment, my faith dried up. I remember crying out over and over again, "Lord, please don't do this." I knew I had not desired to be separated from Christ but it intensely seemed to be so. I didn't know what I believed anymore and the things I still knew felt false. I cried out to the Lord, but my heart was so hard my repentance didn't feel real. I wasn't really broken. Even my fear was no longer of being separated from God, but of condemnation. My heart had become extremely resistant to the Lord and I felt extreme rage toward him. There was no love for the Lord in my heart anymore. (And even 2 years later, I see no movement of the Spirit, no change in heart or anything. I don't see the Lord rearranging my heart and moving my desires. Just deadness in my heart.)
This sent me spiraling even harder. I began meeting with close brothers in Christ and explaining the situation confessing what I had done. However, nothing changed. I eventually got the idea that I had become apostate and that there was no way to return to Christ or that I had become like Esau and was unable to repent. Then the thought, "If there's no hope of restoration, and I'm doomed to hell, I should go now while I only have 20 something years of sin to pay for than wait until I'm 60 and have 60 years of sinning to pay for." At this point I was seeing Christian therapists who were also trying to walk me through this time. Eventually, things hit super rock bottom and my psychologist said that I needed to check into a mental institution and go under suicide watch. My time there was filled with all the same. Not sleeping, barely eating and panic attacks. Strangely enough, I ran into a woman who was also a patient there that was leading a Bible study each night before bed. She was a pastor's wife who had also had a mental breakdown. I explained my situation and she said she believed I had not yet lost my salvation. Eventually, I was released and have continued to struggle with the reality of what I'm experiencing.

My big question is what to do now. I think I've come to the point where I can't deny my loss of relationship with Christ and my udder lack of the presence of the Holy Spirit. I understand completely that, even though I never purposefully and willfully chose to have no part of Christ, I nevertheless completely deserve my condemnation. What is the best course of action now? What can I be confident is most God glorifying thing for me to do right now?

Thanks for reading if you made it this far.

Your experience is extra ordinary but not extremely so.

I also have been down a very bumpy road similar to yours with a period of several years of questioning my relationship with the LORD. I too was sent to professionals for help but to not much avail.

Gradually my fear and doubt abated and I am back in fellowship with Him and He has renewed my faith as well.

It was always there but as you said I had become numb to it.

I've prayed for you brother Tyler. Keep looking up, soon perhaps over an extended period of time He will make Himself known to you again after His temporary withdrawal.

 

[Dave G]

First of all,

I'd like to ask one of the Moderators or someone in Admin to please consider moving this thread to:
"Christian Fellowship Forums" under "Prayer Requests and Praise".
Then I would ask that the OP ( Tyler ) at some point, to create a second thread that deals with the subject of loss of salvation, and his beliefs about it, along with what he may see as Scriptural support for it.
This subject can be dealt with apart from the personal aspect...which I believe should either be addressed in private via PM / Starting a Conversation, or in the Prayer Request thread.

Given the OP's post so far, I am firmly convinced that this is not primarily a matter of dealing with the subject of loss of salvation, which I've experienced my own doubts about over the years until recently, but rather a matter of dealing with aspects of our walk with the Lord over many years... and needs to be dealt with from God's word and in a private setting, if possible.

I think that perhaps the OP, being new to the site, thought that the subject of loss of salvation and his own experiences with believing this false doctrine ( yes, I believe loss of salvation to be a false doctrine, and one I fell into the belief of at times, over the course of my 41 years as a believer ), were what prompted him to create the thread in the "Calvinism" versus "Arminianism" sectioon within the "Christian Debate Forums"...while I feel that, due to the nature of his post, the answers should be dealt with in two phases:

The counseling phase, and the doctrinal phase.

Tyler,
I'd like the privilege of addressing both, since it seems you and I have gone through so many similar occurrences:

had a false conversion experience when I was around 5.

So did I, around the age of 6.
It resulted in me having a "religious awareness" of the Lord, but went no further.

Fast forward to when I was 10.

Fast forward to when I was 12, and heard the word of God preached in an Independent Baptist Church...it really got my attention.
That was the real change-maker, and my desire to obey Him and His word grew from there.

"If there's no hope of restoration, and I'm doomed to hell, I should go now while I only have 20 something years of sin to pay for than wait until I'm 60 and have 60 years of sinning to pay for."

This is exactly how I felt during a particularly nasty trial of my faith 7 years ago this coming September.
I'd like to start a conversation with you privately, if you're willing.

After reading your post thoroughly, I think I may be of some help, Tyler.
I've learned a lot since then...

About my "wicked flesh" that keeps leading me to fall into sins ( Romans 7:14-25, Galatians 5:17 ), about the difference between it and the new "heart" that desires to obey the Lord ( Ezekiel 11:19, Ezekiel 36:26, Hebrews 8:7-13, etc. ) and fight the sin that is within "the flesh" of every child of His.

That internal battle that is characteristic of a saved person.

My big question is what to do now. I think I've come to the point where I can't deny my loss of relationship with Christ and my udder lack of the presence of the Holy Spirit. I understand completely that, even though I never purposefully and willfully chose to have no part of Christ, I nevertheless completely deserve my condemnation. What is the best course of action now? What can I be confident is most God glorifying thing for me to do right now?

I know exactly how you feel, Tyler...
Believe it or not.

PM me by right-clicking on my picture... and when it pops up, choose, "start a conversation" and then it will prompt you to compose something similar to an e-mail with title and subject matter.
You don't have to get complicated about the first post...just let me know by message, if you'd like to talk.
I will do the talking at first, because I genuinely feel like this is an opportunity for me to be used of the Lord to help a brother who has been going through many of the same doubts and fears that I have, in the past.

Let's address this post together, shall we?



May God bless you greatly, Tyler.
...and know that even when we are far from Him in our own minds and in our emotions and wounded consciences, He is always near...whether or not we "feel" it.

 

[MB]

When Christ died for our sins we hadn't even sin yet. Our sins in the past the present and the future are for given. They have to be, because eternal life is given the moment we believe. The interesting thing about being eternal is that there is no end to eternity. The smartest man who ever lived wrote;
Ecc 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not.
Even the greatest pastor you can think of still sins. There is literally no one with out sin yet men are still saved.
MB