Lost by God's Will?

[Martin Marprelate]

Man's will never supersedes or manipulates God's will. God's will is that all men be saved but that they be saved God's way. God is sovereign enough to give man the choice of accepting or rejecting Christ. God ordained the consequences of each choice. That is in no way forcing Him to act against His will.

So God's will is not that all men be saved, but only those who come to Him in the way that He desires?
I thank God that He loved me enough to save me and not give me a choice in the matter. He ordained the fact of my salvation and also the means. Praise God for irresistible grace! 'It is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy.'

 

[Iconoclast]

Translation: Non-calvinists are dumb. Greek scholars on Bible translation committees that have translated this passage are wrong.

A person can be a genius and not understand the things of God...of course some could also be dumb,you might have a point there! 1 cor2:14.
Did it ever occur to you that cults also have"greek scholars? Do you think some might have a bias?
You were aware of the two different words, or you just wanted to object, to object?

 

[Iconoclast]

Brother, I believe it is the biblical view, not just my opinion.


This seems like a contradiction to me. Why would we have to remove obstacles if one's salvation is a forgone conclusion?


Friend, please know that I am trying to understand your position, but it is very unreasonable in my opinion. Why would God predetermine that a man is to spend eternity in hell and then send you to him and offer him a gift that he cannot accept?


It appears as if God Himself is stopping that person from believing. Or, do you believe, as I do, that God knows who would/will accept the free pardon of sin and therefore predestine that individual to heaven?


That is the big misconception or misrepresentation. I believe that salvation is 100% of God. He and He alone gave us the means of our salvation. It is our responsibility to merely get on board with His conditional plan.


I always enjoy our discussions, Brother.

I know you believe it to be the biblical view.I know you have a desire to be used of God to take the gospel to those perishing. Our interaction here is a win, win situation as we seek to strengthen each others view.
Now God uses us to remove obstacles because the natural man is opposed by the world, flesh, and the devil

God ordained means,prayer preaching godly living by saints, Gods love working through us as instruments to remove obstacles.
God used means during the 1st Exodus,the spoken word,the plagues to deliver His people and judge the ungodly line.
You believe God loves everyone the same, but that is not what I see in scripture.
I see God judging the ungodly line to deliver the Godly line.
No one accepts the free gift, not one unless God Grace's them.
Psalm 14,Rome are quite clear, God saw no one seeking Him. That is the biblical revelation on that.

Another thing is God did not actively predestined men to hell. When we offer the gospel it is a legitimate offer that they do not want.
They refuse it every time.

 

[HankD]

But you have to explain to me how it is that if Almighty God desires all mankind to be saved, they aren't.

I already said I don't know but I believe He does though most are lost.

Ecclesiastes 8:17 Then I beheld all the work of God, that a man cannot find out the work that is done under the sun: because though a man labour to seek it out, yet he shall not find it; yea further; though a wise man think to know it, yet shall he not be able to find it.

Isaiah 55
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

To take the second one, 1 John 5:19, first, if 'we' are of God then the 'whole world' cannot mean every single person in the world because it doesn't include 'us.'
In 1 John 2:2, we know that God is not propitiated in respect of all the people in the world, so whatever 'the whole world' means, it doesn't mean that. It means Jews, Gentiles, Greeks and Scythians, men and women, young and old, rich and poor, wise and foolish. This is also the meaning of 'world' in John 12:19. It is obviously restricted to the Jewish 'world,' but within that, it refers to all sorts of people..

Strange, it's not so obvious to me because I can't find any of these words "Jews, Gentiles, Greeks and Scythians, men and women, young and old, rich and poor, wise and foolish" in the 1 john passage or in 1 john anywhere for that matter, so I'll pass on your exegesis Martin.

I Know I am of God, I know the whole world lies in the wicked one, I know I am IN the world but not OF the world.

How do i know - the Bible tells me so. That's the book for me (yes the song).

 

[HankD]

Do those who go to the White Throne a judgment have their sins propitiated?

Past tense - yes

 

[Pastor_Bob]

If the natural man cannot receive the things of God...how does anyone become saved,if God leaves then to themself?

God gives all men a measure of light (John 1:9).
He gives man the light creation, the light of conscience, and the light of scripture. If any man responds to the light given, God gives them more light (Mark 4:24).

All men are drawn (John 12:32).
All men are loved (John 3:16).
All are desired for salvation (II Timothy 2:4).
Propitiation is provided for all (I John 2:2).

How can you possibly conclude that I believe that God leaves my salvation up to me? He provides salvation; I just need to accept it.

The man cannot welcome the truth,then he can?

There are simply too many biblical examples that say otherwise (Cornelius, Lydia, the Ethiopian Eunuch).

Jesus said no man can come,how do they come on their own?

I have never asserted that they come on their own. God is fully involved and in control of the entire process. He simply does not drag us, kicking and screaming, to Calvary. Rather, He repeatedly invites us to come.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

So God's will is not that all men be saved, but only those who come to Him in the way that He desires?

No, that is your conclusion, not mine.

I thank God that He loved me enough to save me and not give me a choice in the matter.

I thank God that he loved me enough to give me a choice in the matter and not predestine me to a Christless eternity.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

The OP overlooks the major problem with their position. Do you believe the will of God is always accomplished? Isaiah 46:10 says that He will accomplish his purposes.

Isaiah is speaking of prophecies that will come to pass exactly as they have been foretold from the beginning. Since I believe firmly in the free will of man, there is no way that I could say that man's will always lines up with God's will. To say such would clearly declare that believed God was the author of sin.

If His will is truly that all are saved, yet some are not, then you have a major problem here with your interpretation of the passage.

Not if you understand the biblical truth of freedom of the will. Who, in your opinion, does God will to go to hell?

 

[Iconoclast]

God gives all men a measure of light (John 1:9).
He gives man the light creation, the light of conscience, and the light of scripture. If any man responds to the light given, God gives them more light (Mark 4:24).

All men are drawn (John 12:32).
All men are loved (John 3:16).
All are desired for salvation (II Timothy 2:4).
Propitiation is provided for all (I John 2:2).

How can you possibly conclude that I believe that God leaves my salvation up to me? He provides salvation; I just need to accept it.


There are simply too many biblical examples that say otherwise (Cornelius, Lydia, the Ethiopian Eunuch).

I have never asserted that they come on their own. God is fully involved and in control of the entire process. He simply does not drag us, kicking and screaming, to Calvary. Rather, He repeatedly invites us to come.

No man responds to the light given.
All men are not savingly drawn.
All men are not savingly loved.
All men are not the objects of salvation.
Propitiation is not made for all. It is not potential propitiation ,but actual.
If you need to do anything it is not 100% of God
.In the other post you said men are left to do this and that...not the way it is written.
The eunuch, the jailer, lydia, God sent the means to each one of them

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Strange, it's not so obvious to me because I can't find any of these words "Jews, Gentiles, Greeks and Scythians, men and women, young and old, rich and poor, wise and foolish" in the 1 john passage or in 1 john anywhere for that matter, so I'll pass on your exegesis Martin.

I was actually thinking of Colossians 3:11. Christ in in people of all those groups, but He is not actually 'in all' in the sense of everyone in the world.

I Know I am of God, I know the whole world lies in the wicked one, I know I am IN the world but not OF the world.

I know I am of God (praise His name!) and I know that the whole world lies in the wicked one. But I also know that not every person in the world lies in the wicked one because I have Christian brothers and sisters all over the world.

How do i know - the Bible tells me so. That's the book for me (yes the song).

Amen!

 

[HankD]

I was actually thinking of Colossians 3:11. Christ in in people of all those groups, but He is not actually 'in all' in the sense of everyone in the world.

I know I am of God (praise His name!) and I know that the whole world lies in the wicked one. But I also know that not every person in the world lies in the wicked one because I have Christian brothers and sisters all over the world.

Amen!

Pay attention to the proper use of prepositions and prepositional phrases (the genitive) and - yes Amen!

Youngs Literal Translation.

John 15:19 if of the world ye were, the world its own would have been loving, and because of the world ye are not -- but I chose out of the world -- because of this the world hateth you.

Christ died for all including those in the world in the grip of the evil one.

your last sentence makes no sense.
Admittedly it could be my 77 year old addled brain.

 

[Reformed]

There is a reason why I chose to watch this thread and not participate in it and that reason proved well-founded.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

 

[HankD]

There is a reason why I chose to watch this thread and not participate in it and that reason proved well-founded.

What!? My addled brain?

 

[Reformed]

What!? My addled brain?

Well, that is one reason. LOL

 

[[dormouse sighs]]

What does this have to do with salvation?

God has a right to do with us what he wills, because of his incomprehensible sovereignty. If he has prepared some for Heaven or "honourable use", one would ascertain that some he has chosen to receive Hell or "common use" according to His Glory.

Those He has called to Heaven by his Grace receive Mercy.
Those He predestine for Hell by way of his Wrath receive Justice.

God is good.

 

[HankD]

Well, that is one reason. LOL

 

[Reformed]

Actually, I was pretty sure the thread would devolve.

 

[HankD]

Actually, I was pretty sure the thread would devolve.

What is one man's devolution is another man's evolution.

 

[loDebar]

God did not have to choose to saved anyone, We are already condemned awaiting eternal Hell. Death Row.
He chose to offer salvation to anyone who would repent and accept His pardon
It is not His fault if many don't as some would have us believe

 

[HeirofSalvation]

The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.

We are to believe that Peter felt it necessary to tell the church that God purposes, decrees, and predestines all of the elect will eventually come to repentance unto salvation?

That's fairly obvious, isn't it?

More likely the plain reading is all you need--God does not want anyone to perish, wants all to come to repentance, but because they reject Jesus, they will perish.

Aaahh…..
No. no. no, you just don't get it, ITL.

The Bible regularly spells out self-evident tautologies such as:
"The elect are elect"
"Those who God loves he loves"
"The saved are the saved"

etc....
The fact that you don't get this obviously suggests you don't "understand" the Scriptures at all.
The fact that you can't grasp that both Peter and Paul thought it necessary to remind their respective audiences that "elect" means "elect" and "saved" means "saved" suggests to me that you don't comprehend the Bible at all.
Timothy was no doubt a capital idiot, and Paul had to remind him that God loves who God loves...….

If you were enlightened sufficiently, as the Calvinists are, you would understand this...
As it stands, you (and Timothy obviously, who Paul thought qualified to pastor churches) weren't to be trusted to know that God loves who he loves, elects who he elects, and saves who he saves......
That's the nuance of Scripture you see....
The things only someone who has embraced the Calvinist model understands...

For instance, can you TRULY comprehend the Theological significance behind this BRILLIANT tautological exegesis by ICON:

In a positive way I believe God is incontrol 100 % of salvation so He saves all he intends to save. I don't believe that God intends to save people and they don't become saved.

Can you wrap your miniscule brain around such brilliance???

I TROW NOT!!!!

"He saves all he intends to save".....
Like GOSH
Like WOW
Like OMG
Like Are you for reals?????

Paul knew that, obviously, Timothy, whom he was preparing for the pastorate, clearly didn't.

Icon gets it, and that's why he receives the exorbitant salary we pay him.

I'll pray for you to come to that understanding some day.
Why, exactly, I don't know, because God has already purposed in his heart to abandon you and your kind to darkness and ignorance for his own glory anyway.....so....
You'll never become enlightened.
But, God uses means....or something.....
So, I'll pray for you anyway.

Silly Rabbit:
Trix are for kids.