Lost by God's Will?

[Iconoclast]

Hey HOS, Hope you are doing well,

Do not speak so harshly to ITL. He is participating.

Now i noticed a post earlier that seemed to mock and ridicule my response to ITL.

That is okay. You said it was brilliant. No it was just a nice basic truth that will not change because you scoff at it, and offer nothing to the thread.
Not sure where the post is now.

 

[Iconoclast]

"HeirofSalvation

]Aaahh…..
No. no. no, you just don't get it, ITL.

yes, you noticed it also.

[QUOTE]The Bible regularly spells out self-evident tautologies such as:
"The elect are elect"
"Those who God loves he loves"
"The saved are the saved"[/QUOTE]
they should be self evident, but it seems to escape the notice of several...
etc....

The fact that you don't get this obviously suggests you don't "understand" the Scriptures at all.
The fact that you can't grasp that both Peter and Paul thought it necessary to remind their respective audiences that "elect" means "elect" and "saved" means "saved" suggests to me that you don't comprehend the Bible at all.

This looms as a possibility

Timothy was no doubt a capital idiot, and Paul had to remind him that God loves who God loves...

….
A reminder is always nice
[QUOTE]If you were enlightened sufficiently, as the Calvinists are, you would understand this...[/QUOTE]

As it stands, you (and Timothy obviously, who Paul thought qualified to pastor churches) weren't to be trusted to know that God loves who he loves, elects who he elects, and saves who he saves......
That's the nuance of Scripture you see....
The things only someone who has embraced the Calvinist model understands...

Keen insight

For instance, can you TRULY comprehend the Theological significance behind this BRILLIANT tautological exegesis by ICON:

Thanks HOS, they are short and to the point.


"He saves all he intends to save".....

 

[Reformed1689]

That's right since everyone has been chosen so that the who so evers could be saved

If everyone is chosen (something not found in Scripture by the way), then why are not all saved? Remember, John 6:37 says that all the Father gives to Christ will come to Christ. This is not after salvation, this is clearly before salvation because it is only after the Father gives them (chooses them) that they come.

 

[MB]

If everyone is chosen (something not found in Scripture by the way), then why are not all saved? Remember, John 6:37 says that all the Father gives to Christ will come to Christ. This is not after salvation, this is clearly before salvation because it is only after the Father gives them (chooses them) that they come.

Gentiles are chosen corporately in Act's 28:28 Election does not mean we will be saved but means we can be if we are willing

Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
2Pe_3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.but that all should come to repentance.

You will most likely reject this but the fact that Salvation was sent unto the Gentiles means they were chosen corporately.
By the way where does scripture say we are chosen individually?
MB

 

[loDebar]

What was all sinners?

His offer of salvation was to all sinners, ALL , Are the elect sinners? the non elect?

Sinners need saving, "All have sinned."

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Because I am reading your posts?

This saddens me, my friend. You seem to be reading in my posts only your preconceived ideas about what I believe and are not reading what I am actually writing.

Let me state it one last time and then I'm riding off into the sunset; because, as our friend @Reformed has stated, this thread has horribly devolved. My salvation is 100% up to God. He saves me. He keeps me. He provided the Saviour. He ordained the means of my salvation. I cannot change one minute aspect of God's plan of salvation. He clearly tells me in His Word what conditions I must meet in order to experience the free pardon of sin. He clearly tells me the consequences of meeting or not meeting His conditions. He is clearly the Captain of my salvation - I simply accepted His invitation to get onboard. If that is your definition of playing a part in my own salvation, then so be it.

Blessing to you, my Brother.

 

[Reformed]

Let me state it one last time and then I'm riding off into the sunset; because, as our friend @Reformed has stated, this thread has horribly devolved. My salvation is 100% up to God. He saves me. He keeps me. He provided the Saviour. He ordained the means of my salvation. I cannot change one minute aspect of God's plan of salvation. He clearly tells me in His Word what conditions I must meet in order to experience the free pardon of sin. He clearly tells me the consequences of meeting or not meeting His conditions. He is clearly the Captain of my salvation - I simply accepted His invitation to get onboard.

Bob, I have been out all day and just now have the time to respond after seeing my name tagged in your post.

First, let me state that I do not doubt for one second that your, "salvation is 100% up to God". In fact, unless I am dead-set on nitpicking your post, I do not find anything that I disagree with. Even the most fervent Calvinist will say that faith is part of the Ordo Salutis (order of salvation) and without faith, it is not possible to be in Christ (Romans 4:13). Of course, our different view on election, the atonement, and the nature of man effects how we understand the Ordo Salutis. The Calvinist believes that sinful man is spiritually dead (Ephesians 2:1) and unable to respond to the things of God (Romans 3, 8:7, 1 Corinthians 2:14). The Father elected those who will inherit salvation from eternity past (Romans 8:30; Ephesians 1:4) and calls them in-time by the ministry of the Word and the Spirit (Romans 1:16; John 3:8). Those who are called unto salvation, being called by the ministry of the Word and the Spirit, are made able to believe through the gift of faith (Ephesians 2:8). All of this is the work of God. When the former sinner finally believes (exercises saving faith), it is the culmination of the Father's electing, the Son making salvation possible, and the Spirit calling and enabling. Where we probably disagree (among other things) is that individuals have the free will to accept or reject the Gospel call. The Calvinist believes that those who reject were called in a general sense (c.f. Acts 17:30), but not effectually called (c.f. John 6:37-40). Those who are effectually called will believe, each and every time.

 

[Iconoclast]

Pastor_Bob,
Hello Pastor Bob, I think we have had some good interaction and I always like your civil manner of posting. Even though we do not agree on all points, I find you likeable and honest. Each thread has a short life because detractors enter in. Now I will show where we agree, and I will explain my statement to you...the one that seemed a bit edgy, [because I am reading your posts} I will explain;

This saddens me, my friend. You seem to be reading in my posts only your preconceived ideas about what I believe and are not reading what I am actually writing.

Let me explain;

[Let me state it one last time and then I'm riding off into the sunset; because, as our friend @Reformed has stated, this thread has horribly devolved.]

My salvation is 100% up to God.

Agree but have questions for you on it...

He saves me. He keeps me.

Agreed

He provided the Saviour. He ordained the means of my salvation.

agree

I cannot change one minute aspect of God's plan of salvation.

agree

NOW HERE WE DIFFER

He clearly tells me in His Word what conditions I must meet in order to experience the free pardon of sin.

This is where it goes sideways....you say...I MUST MEET IN ORDER TO

[He clearly tells me the consequences of meeting or not meeting His conditions. He is clearly the Captain of my salvation - I simply accepted His invitation to get onboard. If that is your definition of playing a part in my own salvation, then so be it.

When I read your post here is where my thinking goes; We both know some were suggesting circumcision
Acts 15 King James Version (KJV)
15 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said,

Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

Except you be......................now anything inserted here is wrong, such as
circumcised,
baptized,
Except you.....eat the Eucharist
Except you....meet these conditions....you cannot be saved.
That is why I said because I read your posts?

Nevertheless, we have expressed our views and a bit of why we hold them, at this point, we can do no more, so it was a good interaction. Thanks.

 

[percho]

And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams: Acts 2:17

? All kinds of flesh?

If, "all," ain't, all, then ole Slick Willie may have been right, it depends on what, "is," is!

 

[Reformed1689]

Gentiles are chosen corporately in Act's 28:28 Election does not mean we will be saved but means we can be if we are willing

Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
2Pe_3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.but that all should come to repentance.

You will most likely reject this but the fact that Salvation was sent unto the Gentiles means they were chosen corporately.
By the way where does scripture say we are chosen individually?
MB

Let me ask you this, what does corporate election mean to you? Are you saying that God is giving all to the Son?

His offer of salvation was to all sinners, ALL , Are the elect sinners? the non elect?

Sinners need saving, "All have sinned."

Yes, all sinners need saving, but not all are going to be saved.

 

[MB]

Let me ask you this, what does corporate election mean to you? Are you saying that God is giving all to the Son?



Yes, all sinners need saving, but not all are going to be saved.

Your misunderstanding of election is the reason for your mistake. Election has never been individual. It has never meant that you will be saved if it did then it would not be called election. We are chosen so that we can be saved not that we will be other wise election would be called Salvtion. You have no scripture that states you will be saved no matter what because of your election.. This is not in scripture.
MB

 

[loDebar]

Let me ask you this, what does corporate election mean to you? Are you saying that God is giving all to the Son?



Yes, all sinners need saving, but not all are going to be saved.

yes, but God would prefer all

2Pe 3:9

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, notwilling that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

 

[Reformed1689]

Your misunderstanding of election is the reason for your mistake. Election has never been individual. It has never meant that you will be saved if it did then it would not be called election. We are chosen so that we can be saved not that we will be other wise election would be called Salvtion. You have no scripture that states you will be saved no matter what because of your election.. This is not in scripture.
MB

I have provided MULTIPLE Scriptures in MULTIPLE threads with verses that state just that. So, in your unbiblical view, EVERYONE is elect? You definitely do not see that in Scripture.

 

[Reformed1689]

yes, but God would prefer all

2Pe 3:9

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, notwilling that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Context my friend, context. Who is 2 Peter 3:9 referring to? It is not everyone.

 

[MB]

\

I have provided MULTIPLE Scriptures in MULTIPLE threads with verses that state just that. So, in your unbiblical view, EVERYONE is elect? You definitely do not see that in Scripture.

Really Prove with scripture that election is individual.?
MB

 

[loDebar]

Context my friend, context. Who is 2 Peter 3:9 referring to? It is not everyone.

He is writing to believers about ALL including non believers at the second coming and last days. All of Ch 2 referrs to the ungodly.

You can't make up meanings. Read the Greek , Read the Book

 

[MB]

I have provided MULTIPLE Scriptures in MULTIPLE threads with verses that state just that. So, in your unbiblical view, EVERYONE is elect? You definitely do not see that in Scripture.

Not so or you would have proved it this time. Truth is you can't and never have. You make all kinds claims and all I see is unbecoming remarks. You have no humility.
MB

 

[InTheLight]

Going forward I think I know how I will respond to these debates with Calvinists. There is no need to type out a response to their tired, faulty reasoning. As a kind of shorthand, and in the interest of saving time responding, I will number my responses that point out their errant argument. Here is the key:

#1. THAT WORD MEANS SOMETHING ELSE IN THE GREEK
#2. THAT VERSE IS OUT OF CONTEXT
#3. THAT VERSE WAS NOT WRITTEN TO THE PEOPLE YOU ARE CLAIMING
#4. YOU BELIEVE THIS, WHICH IS WRONG (Ascribing a belief to you that you do not hold and then attacking it. Analog: Mind reading.)
#5. YOU ARE NOT SMART ENOUGH TO UNDERSTAND THE DOCTRINES OF GRACE

So, let's see how this would work in practice.

Context my friend, context. Who is 2 Peter 3:9 referring to? It is not everyone.

#2
#3

When I read your post here is where my thinking goes; We both know some were suggesting circumcision

#4

So, in your unbiblical view, EVERYONE is elect?

#4

If you were enlightened sufficiently, as the Calvinists are, you would understand this...

#5

If everyone is chosen then why are not all saved?

#4

 

[MB]

Going forward I think I know how I will respond to these debates with Calvinists. There is no need to type out a response to their tired, faulty reasoning. As a kind of shorthand, and in the interest of saving time responding, I will number my responses that point out their errant argument. Here is the key:

#1. THAT WORD MEANS SOMETHING ELSE IN THE GREEK
#2. THAT VERSE IS OUT OF CONTEXT
#3. THAT VERSE WAS NOT WRITTEN TO THE PEOPLE YOU ARE CLAIMING
#4. YOU BELIEVE THIS, WHICH IS WRONG (Ascribing a belief to you that you do not hold and then attacking it. Analog: Mind reading.)
#5. YOU ARE NOT SMART ENOUGH TO UNDERSTAND THE DOCTRINES OF GRACE

So, let's see how this would work in practice.




#2
#3




#4




#4




#5




#4

So true. You see this way they don;t have to defend there deceptive doctrines.
MB

 

[Reformed1689]

Going forward I think I know how I will respond to these debates with Calvinists. There is no need to type out a response to their tired, faulty reasoning. As a kind of shorthand, and in the interest of saving time responding, I will number my responses that point out their errant argument. Here is the key:

#1. THAT WORD MEANS SOMETHING ELSE IN THE GREEK
#2. THAT VERSE IS OUT OF CONTEXT
#3. THAT VERSE WAS NOT WRITTEN TO THE PEOPLE YOU ARE CLAIMING
#4. YOU BELIEVE THIS, WHICH IS WRONG (Ascribing a belief to you that you do not hold and then attacking it. Analog: Mind reading.)
#5. YOU ARE NOT SMART ENOUGH TO UNDERSTAND THE DOCTRINES OF GRACE

So, let's see how this would work in practice.




#2
#3




#4




#4




#5




#4

This is proof you aren't interested in actually engaging the text to find the truth of Scripture.