Love Alone Saves

[MennoSota]

That's what happens here all the time. According to these folks posting here, your scriptural examples of Catholic teachings hold no water. They are right and we are wrong and can never be right no matter how many times we cite the Scriptures and the long historical record of the orthodox Christian experience.

Not true. There are some beliefs, such as the Triune God and the death, burial and resurrection of Yeshua that the church at Rome gets right. It's the wrong teaching regarding salvation that causes Rome to be in heresy and contrary to the Holy Scriptures. It's Rome's insistence on tradition over Scripture that makes them like the Pharisees who had a stumbling block that kept them from knowing Yeshua as their Messiah. I wish that Rome would have its eyes opened.

 

[Adonia]

Now tell me where your sect gets it wrong? And which sect are you in anyway?

Of course it's not. But, I am always studying to understand and make those changes that come through inductive Bible study. Observe, Question, Interpret, check with others to see what they say, Apply, go back to observe again, etc.

What I don't do is accept one set of commentaries as the only valid set of commentaries. The commentaries could be wrong. Therefore I test them against scripture.

I also strongly advise that you not follow the commentary of a liberation theology, marxist, priest who currently leads the Roman church.

Don't worry, I am not a big fan of Pope Francis. His 2 predecessors were more to my liking, but God saw fit to see that Jorge Bergoglio became our Bishop, so that is that.

 

[MennoSota]

Now tell me where your sect gets it wrong? And which sect are you in anyway?


Don't worry, I am not a big fan of Francis. His 2 predecessors were more to my liking, but God saw fit to see that Pope Francis became our Bishop, so that is that.

Well, the denomination I attend is generally Arminian in theology, but the Pastor's in my specific church are more closely aligned with Calvin. I don't agree with one pastor who has a post-trib view regarding Yeshua's return as he considers us to be presently in the time of Tribulation.
The denomination has German roots that follow a similar path to the Mennonites who fled persecution in Germany, then later by the Tzar when he called for forced subscription into the army. I grew up with that background and still consider pacifism to be biblical while also recognizing God's sovereignty over the salvation of men. This came about through reading scripture and seeing the contradiction in the teaching of my church as compared with scripture.
God has been very gracious as He has guided my path.

 

[herbert]

So...when the papacy is wrong and contrary to the Bible...you will admit it and say they are wrong?

Indulgences are nowhere to be found in the Bible.
Infant baptism is nowhere to be found in the Bible.
Mary as a perpetual virgin is nowhere to be found in the Bible.
Mary as the new Ark of the Covenant is nowhere to be found in the Bible.
Relics as a superstituous means of healing is nowhere to be found in the bible.
Sainthood by virtue of signs after death is nowhere to be found in the bible.
Grace given via communion is nowhere to be found in the Bible.
Peter as the first pope is nowhere to be found in the Bible.
Apostolic succession is nowhere to be found in the Bible.
The church of Rome as the universal church is nowhere to be found in the Bible.
Etc...

There you go Herbie. The list could go on. Now...go to your priests and have them tell you what to say so you don't say something they will not approve or goes against their traditions.

"MennoSota,"

First off, referring to a grown man whom you don't know personally as "Herbie" is anything but polite or kind. So if you're so very committed to living according to the Scriptures, I'd like to remind you of this one:

"If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud."

Next, I see that each one of your points above ends with the phrase "is nowhere found in the Bible." It seems, then, that it is your belief that these things may then be disregarded... that Christian doctrines are dispensable unless they're explicitly found in the Bible. Is that a fair inference on my part? Well, for the sake of discussion, let's say that you're right. Let's say that none of those things are "found in the Bible." That pushes our question back a bit.

So, with that in mind, could you please present to me a Bible verse which states something like the following: "...in order for a doctrine to be worthy of Christian belief it must be explicitly presented in the Bible"?

Thank you.

In Him,

Herbert

 

[MennoSota]

"MennoSota,"

First off, referring to a grown man whom you don't know personally as "Herbie" is anything but polite or kind. So if you're so very committed to living according to the Scriptures, I'd like to remind you of this one:

"If I speak in the tongues of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast, but do not have love, I gain nothing. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud."

Next, I see that each one of your points above ends with the phrase "is nowhere found in the Bible." It seems, then, that it is your belief that these things may then be disregarded... that Christian doctrines are dispensable unless they're explicitly found in the Bible. Is that a fair inference on my part? Well, for the sake of discussion, let's say that you're right. Let's say that none of those things are "found in the Bible." That pushes our question back a bit.

So, with that in mind, could you please present to me a Bible verse which states something like the following: "...in order for a doctrine to be worthy of Christian belief it must be explicitly presented in the Bible"?

Thank you.

In Him,

Herbert

Herbie, it's your turn to provide scriptural proofs for the teachings I mentioned coming from the Roman church. You have dodged enough. Now is the time for you to show the biblical support for the doctrines of Rome.

 

[steaver]

Is there a difference? We didn't choose to love God. God chose to love us. That's God's love. Despite having nothing worthy of God's love...God still chooses. Despite the fact that we do not choose to love God...God still chooses to love us. That's love, steaver.

Yes brother, there is a difference in what God said and what you said. I do not respect the rewording of scripture to suit one's beliefs.

 

[steaver]

Hmmm. I wonder if your statement here would qualify as libel. For neither utilyan or Adonia believe that one can "reject Jesus Christ and still be saved..." To say such things about fellow Christians is anything but charitable. Both utilyan and Adonia believe that there is only one way to Heaven, and that is through Christ. So whoever ends up receiving that reward will have gotten there through Christ. I am confident that I am speaking accurately based upon my previous interaction with each of them here on this website. And I ask that, if either of you are reading this, if I've misrepresented you, would you please clarify?

I will await Adonia and Utilyan's affirmation that one cannot be saved if they reject Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour. I will gladly accept their confirmation that Jews and Muslims loving thy neighbour alone cannot save them, that they must not reject that Jesus Christ is the Son of God if they desire to be saved.

 

[Adonia]

I will await Adonia and Utilyan's affirmation that one cannot be saved if they reject Jesus Christ as their Lord and Saviour. I will gladly accept their confirmation that Jews and Muslims loving thy neighbour alone cannot save them, that they must not reject that Jesus Christ is the Son of God if they desire to be saved.

Jews reject Jesus Christ, yet my Bible says they are God's chosen people and therefore presumably have salvation, no?

 

[Adonia]

Herbie, it's your turn to provide scriptural proofs for the teachings I mentioned coming from the Roman church. You have dodged enough. Now is the time for you to show the biblical support for the doctrines of Rome.

Can't you at least show a modicum of respect to our brother who asked you nicely to call him by his proper name?

 

[steaver]

Jews reject Jesus Christ, yet my Bible says they are God's chosen people and therefore presumably have salvation, no?

Let's ask Hebert. What say you Herbert?

 

[MennoSota]

Yes brother, there is a difference in what God said and what you said. I do not respect the rewording of scripture to suit one's beliefs.

You don't agree that God chooses. This bothers you greatly.
The truth is that what I wrote is correct. You just want to be the lord of your life with God as your advisor.

 

[Adonia]

Let's ask Hebert. What say you Herbert?

I am interested in your response to this query, not Herberts. Will you answer the question?

 

[steaver]

You don't agree that God chooses. This bothers you greatly.
The truth is that what I wrote is correct. You just want to be the lord of your life with God as your advisor.

Lol, as you see it brother through the clouded lens of Calvinism. Jesus Christ is the Lord of my life just A ok.

Haven't you noticed yet that condescension tactics of Calvinism does not have any effect on me.

 

[steaver]

I am interested in your response to this query, not Herberts. Will you answer the question?

I have many times and you ignore it. I posted Scripture for you where Paul says the Jews have a zeal for God and yet they are not saved. Your answer to this was you did not believe it, and neither does the RCC teach it, in SPITE of what Paul says (I can look up your quote). I have also posted Scripture where Jesus says if you do not believe He is the Christ, the Son of God, you will die in your sins, and you reject it as well.

So Herbert seems to believe that you do not believe that a person can reject that Jesus of Nazareth is the Christ , the Son of God, crucified for the sins of the world and still be saved by their love of neighbour. So let's see what Herbert has to say, he seems to believe there are no Catholics that would believe such a thing. I say there is two here on this board that do and what I was asking is why they would believe this way if the RCC does not teach such a thing?

 

[herbert]

Herbie, it's your turn to provide scriptural proofs for the teachings I mentioned coming from the Roman church. You have dodged enough. Now is the time for you to show the biblical support for the doctrines of Rome.

"MennoSota,"

I haven't dodged a thing. As a matter of fact, to avoid missing your point or talking past you I have been directly asking you to state something I've got confused in straightforward terms so that I can actually respond. You've not yet done this. Pick one thing that I've said, just one, explain where I've gotten it wrong (based upon something I actually said) and I will gladly respond directly.

Also, I was quite direct in my response this AM when I wrote the following: "Next, I see that each one of your points above ends with the phrase 'is nowhere found in the Bible.' It seems, then, that it is your belief that these things may then be disregarded... that Christian doctrines are dispensable unless they're explicitly found in the Bible. Is that a fair inference on my part? Well, for the sake of discussion, let's say that you're right. Let's say that none of those things are 'found in the Bible.' That pushes our question back a bit.

So, with that in mind, could you please present to me a Bible verse which states something like the following: '...in order for a doctrine to be worthy of Christian belief it must be explicitly presented in the Bible'?"

First, in direct response to you, I asked a question of you (when I said "Is that a fair inference on my part?). Then I, for the sake of discussion, presumed the accuracy of your (apparent) position. Finally I, in recognizing the implications of your position, asked you to demonstrate that your position passed its own test. That is, I wanted to ensure that your position itself lives up to the standard by which it is used to dismiss the positions of others. That's why I asked you to present a Bible verse which states something like "...in order for a doctrine to be worthy of Christian belief it must be explicitly presented in the Bible?" You've not yet done this. Until you show that your standard for assessing a doctrine lives up to itself, we can't move ahead very easily.

Also, at this point, I am going to ask that you consider the standard the Bible sets for us (with respect to communication with one another) and treat me with courtesy. I ask that you please call me Herb or Herbert. I will support this request with another Scripture passage, as well:

Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work, to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarrelling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy towards all people. For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Saviour appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Saviour, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people. Titus 3:1-8 (my emphasis- since I fall under the category "all")

In Him,

Herbert

 

[steaver]

Here ya go Adonia, as to refresh your memory...

Steaver...
So how is a person saved Adonia?

"Can any religious, God loving person make a freewill conscience decision to reject Jesus Christ is the Son of God and still be saved?

What sayeth the scripture...

"Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge"

Paul says they have a zeal of God?!

What is "zeal" ?

zeal
zēl/
noun

1. great energy or enthusiasm in pursuit of a cause or an objective.
   "his zeal for privatization"
   synonyms: passion, ardor, love, fervor, fire, avidity, devotion, enthusiasm, eagerness, keenness, appetite, relish, gusto, vigor, energy, intensity;
   fanaticism

Why does Paul declare Israel's love of God does not save them, yet the RCC declares that people's love of God will save them? Why does your religion's declarations override the Apostle Paul's declarations?


Adonia...
“I personally would not try to say what God would or would not do when it comes to being saved and neither is the Catholic Church despite what St. Paul says”.

 

[herbert]

Jews reject Jesus Christ, yet my Bible says they are God's chosen people and therefore presumably have salvation, no?

Adonia, You've raised an interesting point here. Naturally one of the first passages that comes to mind is Romans 11:25-26:
"Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel will be saved."

There is indeed a mystery at work here. But it seems to me that those who might attempt to understand your words here in some sense which ascribes to you a disregard for the saving work of the Messiah actually doesn't have a problem with anything you're saying. Such a person, it seems to me, has a problem with St. Paul. And it's worthwhile noting, too, remarks like the following from St. Augustine: "In connection with the last judgment, therefore, we who believe can be sure of the following truths ... the Jews will believe" (City of God).

In Him,

Herbert

 

[steaver]

Adonia, You've raised an interesting point here. Naturally one of the first passages that comes to mind is Romans 11:25-26:
"Lest you be wise in your own conceits, I want you to understand this mystery, brethren: a hardening has come upon part of Israel, until the full number of the Gentiles come in, and so all Israel will be saved."

There is indeed a mystery at work here. But it seems to me that those who might attempt to understand your words here in some sense which ascribes to you a disregard for the saving work of the Messiah actually doesn't have a problem with anything you're saying. Such a person, it seems to me, has a problem with St. Paul. And it's worthwhile noting, too, remarks like the following from St. Augustine: "In connection with the last judgment, therefore, we who believe can be sure of the following truths ... the Jews will believe" (City of God).

In Him,

Herbert

Lol. Good Lord! Even you Herbert cannot accept the Word of Paul/God. Somehow people are just not understanding what Paul is saying and therefore Adonia, you are A ok in believing that these Jews will be saved.

You just lost all credibility Herbert.

 

[MennoSota]

Lol, as you see it brother through the clouded lens of Calvinism. Jesus Christ is the Lord of my life just A ok.

Haven't you noticed yet that condescension tactics of Calvinism does not have any effect on me.

There is no cloud in God's word. We do not love God until He first loves us. We can not, therefore, choose God because we hate God.

Continue to live in your denial of God's sovereign work if you must.

 

[MennoSota]

"MennoSota,"

I haven't dodged a thing. As a matter of fact, to avoid missing your point or talking past you I have been directly asking you to state something I've got confused in straightforward terms so that I can actually respond. You've not yet done this. Pick one thing that I've said, just one, explain where I've gotten it wrong (based upon something I actually said) and I will gladly respond directly.

Also, I was quite direct in my response this AM when I wrote the following: "Next, I see that each one of your points above ends with the phrase 'is nowhere found in the Bible.' It seems, then, that it is your belief that these things may then be disregarded... that Christian doctrines are dispensable unless they're explicitly found in the Bible. Is that a fair inference on my part? Well, for the sake of discussion, let's say that you're right. Let's say that none of those things are 'found in the Bible.' That pushes our question back a bit.

So, with that in mind, could you please present to me a Bible verse which states something like the following: '...in order for a doctrine to be worthy of Christian belief it must be explicitly presented in the Bible'?"

First, in direct response to you, I asked a question of you (when I said "Is that a fair inference on my part?). Then I, for the sake of discussion, presumed the accuracy of your (apparent) position. Finally I, in recognizing the implications of your position, asked you to demonstrate that your position passed its own test. That is, I wanted to ensure that your position itself lives up to the standard by which it is used to dismiss the positions of others. That's why I asked you to present a Bible verse which states something like "...in order for a doctrine to be worthy of Christian belief it must be explicitly presented in the Bible?" You've not yet done this. Until you show that your standard for assessing a doctrine lives up to itself, we can't move ahead very easily.

Also, at this point, I am going to ask that you consider the standard the Bible sets for us (with respect to communication with one another) and treat me with courtesy. I ask that you please call me Herb or Herbert. I will support this request with another Scripture passage, as well:

Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work, to speak evil of no one, to avoid quarrelling, to be gentle, and to show perfect courtesy towards all people. For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, hated by others and hating one another. But when the goodness and loving kindness of God our Saviour appeared, he saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Saviour, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life. The saying is trustworthy, and I want you to insist on these things, so that those who have believed in God may be careful to devote themselves to good works. These things are excellent and profitable for people. Titus 3:1-8 (my emphasis- since I fall under the category "all")

In Him,

Herbert

Herberto, I am waiting for your biblical text regarding all the issues I brought up regarding Roman teachings. That is the issue you avoid like the plague.

Share your scripture with us.