Since the scriptures do not even support the Papacy....
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Love Alone Saves
- Thread starter steaver
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"Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God."
"And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken." (Is 62:12)
2.) The beauty of the church. Christians shall be called saints (1 Co. 1:2), the holy people, for they are chosen and called to salvation throughsanctification. They shall be called the redeemed of the Lord; to him they owe their liberty, and therefore to him they owe their service, and they shall not be ashamed to own both. None are to be called the redeemed of the Lord but those that are the holy people; the people of God's purchase are a holy nation. And they shall be called, Sought out. God shall seek them out, and find them, wherever they are dispersed, eclipsed, or lost in a crowd; (Matthew Henry)
Out of context? Hmm. So you don't believe Jesus wanted to gather His Israel under His arms and they would not?
There it is! I knew you would not disappoint! Good ole Calvinism, get that "you reject God as your Master" jab in there whenever someone points out your own errors. Oh, and always dismiss Scripture that looks pretty bad for Calvinism as "just a rogue passage, just ignore that one and claim it is being used out of context".
Absolutely! You mean kept in context, correct? Now do you have an alternative context for Paul saying the Jew's zeal for God would not save them? I'm all ears!
And if you want this debate to end, just answer Herbert and tell him that there is no way you believe a person can reject Jesus Christ and still be saved by loving thy neighbour alone. Herbert said he had many conversations with you and said you would not believe or say that. Now are you saying different things to Herbert about salvation than you are saying here to us?
"Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God."
"And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken." (Is 62:12)
2.) The beauty of the church. Christians shall be called saints (1 Co. 1:2), the holy people, for they are chosen and called to salvation throughsanctification. They shall be called the redeemed of the Lord; to him they owe their liberty, and therefore to him they owe their service, and they shall not be ashamed to own both. None are to be called the redeemed of the Lord but those that are the holy people; the people of God's purchase are a holy nation. And they shall be called, Sought out. God shall seek them out, and find them, wherever they are dispersed, eclipsed, or lost in a crowd; (Matthew Henry)
Out of context? Hmm. So you don't believe Jesus wanted to gather His Israel under His arms and they would not?
There it is! I knew you would not disappoint! Good ole Calvinism, get that "you reject God as your Master" jab in there whenever someone points out your own errors. Oh, and always dismiss Scripture that looks pretty bad for Calvinism as "just a rogue passage, just ignore that one and claim it is being used out of context".
Your first two paragraphs point out that God chooses. That's great!
Then you trash your own presentation regarding God's choice. What compels you to flip-flop and deny what you first quoted?
What this reveals is that you don't really know what you believe, but instead make it up as to whatever feeling is striking you at the moment.
So now that I showed you God DOES seek us you are probably wondering what else you might have gotten wrong by buying into Calvinism.
I would like for you to explain the context of the scripture I provided that you declared I was taking out of context in some way. It seems pretty straight forward to me, but I am indeed a simple man.
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!"
Now to me this seems pretty simple, but I guess you see something I do not. So please give us your explanation if it is not Jesus' desire to save all of Israel and they would not.
God does not seek anyone, steaver. God is all knowing and therefore knows all humans down to the number of hairs on their head. You have failed in your very first claim.
What God does is to call people unto Himself and draw them to Himself.
Jesus is lamenting a people that cannot repent. Read Ezekiel to grasp the truth that God placed a stumbling block in front of Israel so that they would not see nor hear.
Of course it seems simple to you. You have a pretext and imagine the one verse is your proof text.
What is obvious is that you have a small view of God.
Let's see,
What God said verses what MennoSota says, what to do, what to do....
Let me read this again....
God...""And they shall call them, The holy people, The redeemed of the LORD: and thou shalt be called, Sought out, A city not forsaken." (Is 62:12)
Menno..."God does not seek anyone".
There you go again changing up the words! Jesus said the "would" not.
And you have not explained the passage yet, break it down and do not change up the words.
Now why do you figure God would have to block and blind folks who could not repent anyways. Kinda redundant no?
You do not fail me brother! You should just make this your signature line at the bottom of your post. Calvinism sure has you trained well.
Hmmm....Isaiah 62...a fantastic passage regarding God’s sovereign choice to be gracious to sinners. Thanks for encouraging me to read the entire passage. It makes me rejoice even more in my Sovereign God.
It's a bummer that you have such a low view of the Sovereign God, steaver.
Isaiah 62:1-12
[1]Because I love Zion, I will not keep still. Because my heart yearns for Jerusalem, I cannot remain silent. I will not stop praying for her until her righteousness shines like the dawn, and her salvation blazes like a burning torch.
[2]The nations will see your righteousness. World leaders will be blinded by your glory. And you will be given a new name by the lord’s own mouth.
[3]The lord will hold you in his hand for all to see— a splendid crown in the hand of God.
[4]Never again will you be called “The Forsaken City” or “The Desolate Land.” Your new name will be “The City of God’s Delight” and “The Bride of God,” for the lord delights in you and will claim you as his bride.
[5]Your children will commit themselves to you, O Jerusalem, just as a young man commits himself to his bride. Then God will rejoice over you as a bridegroom rejoices over his bride.
[6]O Jerusalem, I have posted watchmen on your walls; they will pray day and night, continually. Take no rest, all you who pray to the lord.
[7]Give the lord no rest until he completes his work, until he makes Jerusalem the pride of the earth.
[8]The lord has sworn to Jerusalem by his own strength: “I will never again hand you over to your enemies. Never again will foreign warriors come and take away your grain and new wine.
[9]You raised the grain, and you will eat it, praising the lord. Within the courtyards of the Temple, you yourselves will drink the wine you have pressed.”
[10]Go out through the gates! Prepare the highway for my people to return! Smooth out the road; pull out the boulders; raise a flag for all the nations to see.
[11]The lord has sent this message to every land: “Tell the people of Israel, ‘Look, your Savior is coming. See, he brings his reward with him as he comes.’”
[12]They will be called “The Holy People” and “The People Redeemed by the lord.” And Jerusalem will be known as “The Desirable Place” and “The City No Longer Forsaken.”
It's a bummer that you have such a low view of the Sovereign God, steaver.
Isaiah 62:1-12
[1]Because I love Zion, I will not keep still. Because my heart yearns for Jerusalem, I cannot remain silent. I will not stop praying for her until her righteousness shines like the dawn, and her salvation blazes like a burning torch.
[2]The nations will see your righteousness. World leaders will be blinded by your glory. And you will be given a new name by the lord’s own mouth.
[3]The lord will hold you in his hand for all to see— a splendid crown in the hand of God.
[4]Never again will you be called “The Forsaken City” or “The Desolate Land.” Your new name will be “The City of God’s Delight” and “The Bride of God,” for the lord delights in you and will claim you as his bride.
[5]Your children will commit themselves to you, O Jerusalem, just as a young man commits himself to his bride. Then God will rejoice over you as a bridegroom rejoices over his bride.
[6]O Jerusalem, I have posted watchmen on your walls; they will pray day and night, continually. Take no rest, all you who pray to the lord.
[7]Give the lord no rest until he completes his work, until he makes Jerusalem the pride of the earth.
[8]The lord has sworn to Jerusalem by his own strength: “I will never again hand you over to your enemies. Never again will foreign warriors come and take away your grain and new wine.
[9]You raised the grain, and you will eat it, praising the lord. Within the courtyards of the Temple, you yourselves will drink the wine you have pressed.”
[10]Go out through the gates! Prepare the highway for my people to return! Smooth out the road; pull out the boulders; raise a flag for all the nations to see.
[11]The lord has sent this message to every land: “Tell the people of Israel, ‘Look, your Savior is coming. See, he brings his reward with him as he comes.’”
[12]They will be called “The Holy People” and “The People Redeemed by the lord.” And Jerusalem will be known as “The Desirable Place” and “The City No Longer Forsaken.”
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I don't think you know anyone who is alive who has scripture right other then yourself. Name one person.
You sure don't hide the fact that your a Calvinist. All non-Calvinist have this low view of God, correct?
Adonia, Thanks for the response, it allows me to clarify my point (hopefully!).
I DO believe that the Holy Spirit is "with those men" when they elect a pope, always.
But allow me to appeal to Pope Emeritus, Benedict XVI to clarify my point. When asked whether or not the Holy Spirit selects a Pope, he said:
“I would not say so, in the sense that the Holy Spirit picks out the Pope…I would say that the Spirit does not exactly take control of the affair, but rather like a good educator, as it were, leaves us much space, much freedom, without entirely abandoning us. Thus the Spirit’s role should be understood in a much more elastic sense, not that he dictates the candidate for whom one must vote. Probably the only assurance he offers is that the thing cannot be totally ruined.”
Does that seem a bit more reasonable?
In Him,
Herbert
Okay, that makes sense. I get your point. Thanks.
Well, about St. Paul... Since this thread is about to close, maybe this topic deserves a new thread. If you start one, we can take the time to discuss these passages of Scripture.
God Bless you, steaver.
In Him,
Herbert
That seems a bit more like the Holy Spirit is just watching and if the pick is looking really bad He might or might not step in.
I started a new one. Blessings!
I'll see you over there!
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