Love requires choice?

[Luke2427]

I don't think I could prove that to you. You have already made up your mind.

What I have proved is that Jesus obeyed his Father by choice. He could have done otherwise, Mat 26:53 absolutely implies that. And if you are honest you know that.

God the Son could have sinned?

Why didn't he?

If your view is correct, then Jesus could not imply that it was possible for him to pray to his Father to be rescued, that would be a lie.

HE could if he would. That's the thing you keep missing. You can't if you WON'T.

You could if you would but you can't if you won't.

He COULD pray and be delivered from the Father's will if he WOULD pray and be delivered from the Father's will

But he WOULD NOT pray to be delivered from the Father's will. The whole point in that passage is that Jesus simply WOULD NOT do other than his Father's will.

 

[JamesL]

Why don't you ask John MacArthur or Paul Washer and see what they tell you?

Why can't you simply believe scripture? Did Jesus imply that he could have prayed to his Father, and his Father would send more than twelve legions of angels to rescue him if he desired?

Doesn't that prove Jesus obeyed his Father by choice?

Think for yourself for once.

The original question was about LOVE, not obedience. But every time you get into an argument about an intangible, such as love or faith, you turn the focus to doing.

Love is not a choice, the choice springs FROM love. Your thinking muddles the cause and effect, the root and fruit, after the fact.

Suppose Jesus wasn't in the garden that night, and didn't make the choice til sometime later. Would that mean He didn't love the Father yet? That seems to be the implication of your assertion.

Love, and a choice that may or may not spring from it, would be akin to electrical volts and amps. Voltage is the driving force, while amperage is the consumption. They aren't synonymous. Or in plumbing, water pressure versus volume. They aren't the same thing.

Electrical voltage and water pressure are there whether or not you ever flip a switch or turn a faucet handle.

If your view were correct, then it would have been impossible for Jesus to love the Father until He was made flesh. For when was the Word ever tempted to disobey in eternity?

 

[Winman]

The original question was about LOVE, not obedience. But every time you get into an argument about an intangible, such as love or faith, you turn the focus to doing.

Love is not a choice, the choice springs FROM love. Your thinking muddles the cause and effect, the root and fruit, after the fact.

Suppose Jesus wasn't in the garden that night, and didn't make the choice til sometime later. Would that mean He didn't love the Father yet? That seems to be the implication of your assertion.

Love, and a choice that may or may not spring from it, would be akin to electrical volts and amps. Voltage is the driving force, while amperage is the consumption. They aren't synonymous. Or in plumbing, water pressure versus volume. They aren't the same thing.

Electrical voltage and water pressure are there whether or not you ever flip a switch or turn a faucet handle.

If your view were correct, then it would have been impossible for Jesus to love the Father until He was made flesh. For when was the Word ever tempted to disobey in eternity?

Love is doing and obedience.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

The original thread where I said love was a choice was concerning Adam and Eve in the garden, and mankind in general. God wants us to love him, and love is a choice.

Read 1 Corinthians 13 where love is described. It is an action.

1 Cor 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away

You can say whatever you want, I will believe the word of God. And God's word says love suffers long, is kind, does not envy, does not boast, is not proud, does not seek it's own, etc...

These are ALL action words, whether you like that or not. Love is a choice, and love is an action. If love is not a choice, then why would God command us to love? Such a command would be nonsensical and unnecessary, either you would love without any command being necessary, or you could not possibly love, any commandment being vain and useless as it could not be performed.

Jesus did not HAVE to give himself up to the soldiers, he could have chosen to call on his Father and be rescued, but he did not. That is what scripture says whether you are willing to accept it or not.

 

[Luke2427]

Love is doing and obedience.

John 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

The original thread where I said love was a choice was concerning Adam and Eve in the garden, and mankind in general. God wants us to love him, and love is a choice.

Read 1 Corinthians 13 where love is described. It is an action.

1 Cor 13:3 And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
4 Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
5 Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
6 Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away

You can say whatever you want, I will believe the word of God. And God's word says love suffers long, is kind, does not envy, does not boast, is not proud, does not seek it's own, etc...

These are ALL action words, whether you like that or not. Love is a choice, and love is an action. If love is not a choice, then why would God command us to love? Such a command would be nonsensical and unnecessary, either you would love without any command being necessary, or you could not possibly love, any commandment being vain and useless as it could not be performed.

Jesus did not HAVE to give himself up to the soldiers, he could have chosen to call on his Father and be rescued, but he did not. That is what scripture says whether you are willing to accept it or not.

You could not have missed the meaning of those passages any worse than you did here.

Love manifests itself in action. It is not synonymous to action.

The VERY POINT of the I Corinthians 13 passage is that love is NOT actions (giving your body to be burned, etc...)

You can have all the actions without love.

How can you be this biblically illiterate?

 

[Winman]

You could not have missed the meaning of those passages any worse than you did here.

Love manifests itself in action. It is not synonymous to action.

The VERY POINT of the I Corinthians 13 passage is that love is NOT actions (giving your body to be burned, etc...)

You can have all the actions without love.

How can you be this biblically illiterate?

You are the one missing the point. Try ignoring your wife or being cruel to her and tell her you love her.

You don't have a clue.

 

[JamesL]

You are the one missing the point. Try ignoring your wife or being cruel to her and tell her you love her.

You don't have a clue.

I think you're severely abusing scripture when you say love and the action are synonymous. James asks what good is it if someone has a need for a coat, and you say "God bless you, be warm"

But the doing, of necessity, requires means and ability. What if you also have no coat? Can you legitimately say you don't love the other person if you can't afford a coat for yourself, and therefore do not have the means to give one away?

Didn't Peter say "silver and gold I do not have" ?

What if my friend was pondering suicide, yet I don't try to talk him out of it? You would say I don't love my friend. But what if the reason I don't try is that he's never told me of his struggle? Or what if I know, but I'm in prison for my faith and am not allowed to talk to him?

In your view, I don't love him because I did nothing. But I have to know and have some means.

What if my friend and I are both homeless? Can you say I don't love him because I can't make the choice to give him a warm bed?

Love, and a choice which may or may not stem from love, can be mutually exclusive.

 

[webdog]

So Brother Wes, did you choose to love all your children, or did you already love them, even whilst in the womb? Love is an emotion, and not a choice, per se...

Love isn't merely an emotion or feeling. You see plenty of people on the news daily who don't love their children. The op is comical.

 

[Winman]

I think you're severely abusing scripture when you say love and the action are synonymous. James asks what good is it if someone has a need for a coat, and you say "God bless you, be warm"

But the doing, of necessity, requires means and ability. What if you also have no coat? Can you legitimately say you don't love the other person if you can't afford a coat for yourself, and therefore do not have the means to give one away?

Didn't Peter say "silver and gold I do not have" ?

What if my friend was pondering suicide, yet I don't try to talk him out of it? You would say I don't love my friend. But what if the reason I don't try is that he's never told me of his struggle? Or what if I know, but I'm in prison for my faith and am not allowed to talk to him?

In your view, I don't love him because I did nothing. But I have to know and have some means.

What if my friend and I are both homeless? Can you say I don't love him because I can't make the choice to give him a warm bed?

Love, and a choice which may or may not stem from love, can be mutually exclusive.

I would say you are going to extremes to explain love away here. Of course you cannot give your friend a coat if you do not own a coat, that doesn't mean you do not love him. But if you do have a coat you can spare and do not give it to him then perhaps you do not love him.

Love is expressed through action, the scriptures say, For God so loved the world that he GAVE his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Of course, you cannot give what you do not have.

And I would agree with Luke that giving or doing something can be insincere and superficial.

But to say you love someone and not demonstrate it is not very believable.

 

[Winman]

Love isn't merely an emotion or feeling. You see plenty of people on the news daily who don't love their children. The op is comical.

Yes, this has been a big story in the Northeast the last week...

http://www.nydailynews.com/new-york...-squalor-mom-probed-6-times-article-1.1774880

This mother has been repeatedly investigated for neglecting her children. Love is more than simple emotion, it is responsibility and hard work. It is also a choice, this woman wasn't simply compelled to love her children as Luke and Willis seem to believe.

 

[Winman]

God grants the gift of faith to His elect. Can you read scripture?

God does not give you faith. You cannot show one verse of scripture to support this.

No one can come to Me unless it is granted him by the Father. (John 6:65)

You need to read verse 45, it is knowledge that enables a person to come to Jesus.

Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

Only those who have been taught by the Father can come to Jesus. Only those who have "heard" and "learned" from the Father can come. Therefore it is KNOWLEDGE that enables a person to come to Jesus. And how do we acquire knowledge? Through the word of God.

All that the Father gives to Me will come to Me. (John 6:37

I believe the Father gives those whom in his foreknowledge he knew would believe the word of God.

Correcting his opponents with gentleness. God may perhaps grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth (2 Tim 2:25).

There you go, KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH, just what I am telling you.

It is knowledge of the truth that enables you to believe. But belief is a choice like love, you can choose not to believe.

This very debate forum proves belief is a choice, otherwise why debate?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I am not sure whom I would side with in this debate. The hyper Calvinist or a semi-Pelagianist. Or is WinMan a full Pelagianist?

Who you calling a Hyper Calvinist? You wouldnt know ANY Calvinist of any stripe if they kicked you in the arse.

 

[Winman]

Who you calling a Hyper Calvinist? You wouldnt know ANY Calvinist of any stripe if they kicked you in the arse.

Cut Evan some slack, he's been told a lot of scary bed-time stories.

 

[Luke2427]

You are the one missing the point. Try ignoring your wife or being cruel to her and tell her you love her.

You don't have a clue.

You're so oblivious you don't even know that you just made my point for me.

 

[Winman]

You're so oblivious you don't even know that you just made my point for me.

This is not an argument.

 

[evangelist6589]

Who you calling a Hyper Calvinist? You wouldnt know ANY Calvinist of any stripe if they kicked you in the arse.

You sir need to read this book.

Review from CBD

"Each generation of Christians is a steward of the gospel message, and through the power of the Holy Spirit, God calls upon us to guard this treasure that has been entrusted to us. If we are to be faithful stewards, we must be absorbed in the study of the gospel, take great pains to understand its truths, and pledge ourselves to guard its contents [note: not to hide any secrets, but to be certain its message stays true to the original]. In doing so, we will ensure salvation both for ourselves, and for those who hear us."
The author has divided this book into two parts. Part I is a study of biblical assurance based on the following premise, "Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone, yet the nature of salvation guarantees that saving faith will have real and practical evidences." He uses many Bible verses to formulate this premise, but my favorite one is, "Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves" (2 Corinthians 13:5). The author then examines the apostle John's first epistle and uncovers twelve doctrinal and moral criteria we can use to test ourselves. He dedicates a chapter to each one.
In Part Two, Paul Washer turns his attention to admonitions and warnings in the Scriptures. This study is based on the premise that care must be taken not to trivialize the moment of our salvation, the moment when the heart is justified and made new, nor believe that our journey toward sanctification is easy. Grace is not cheap, and the work of the Holy Spirit must not be seen as trite or haphazard. There is nothing easy about being a follower of Christ. If our walk with Christ lacks the interaction of God's hand of discipline and re-direction, then we should re-examine the status of our hearts. Are they truly regenerated?
The author writes boldly and plainly, yet not in an overly severe tone. His is one of the best explanations I have ever read that makes the way of the gospel clear. My impression, as I read through these chapters, is that Mr. Washer has a genuine concern that his readers experience a true conversion through faith in Christ Jesus. He does not want us to be deceived by those who would over-simplify the doctrines of regeneration and perseverance and live in false hope. It was obvious to me that he desires us to have a living and loving relationship with our God.
The latter half of the book serves as a reminder that there is always a danger of watered down biblical teachings and misdirections, leading many to experience false assurance of salvation. It is the position of the author that there are too many people sitting in our churches who fall into this category. He makes it clear that it is not difficult or too late for us to have unshakable faith, based on a firm biblical foundation. Overall, the book is written to appeal to the everyday person; you don't have to have a theological degree or be a seminarian to understand the author's precepts, or to put them into practice.
Because this book is written clearly enough to be used by anyone who is looking for a biblical basis for assurance of salvation, it would serve well as a personal Bible study or group Bible study. The book also encourages its readers to live out our lives as living signposts, pointing others to the reason we walk with such confidence and joy from day to day--Jesus made us completely whole.
Disclosure of Material Connection: I received a complimentary review copy of this book from Cross Focused Reviews (A Service of Cross Focused Media, LLC)on behalf of Reformation Heritage Books. I was not required to write a positive review. The opinions I have expressed are my own. I am disclosing this in accordance with the Federal Trade Commission’s 16 CFR, Part 255: “Guides Concerning the Use of Endorsements and Testimonials in Advertising.”

 

[evangelist6589]

Cut Evan some slack, he's been told a lot of scary bed-time stories.

A book for you to read as well since you deny Original sin.

 

[evangelist6589]

This is not an argument.

WinMan I have a serious challenge for you.

Apply for a membership on this board and start your debating.

http://www.thecalvinistcafe.org/forum/

 

[JamesL]

I would say you are going to extremes to explain love away here. Of course you cannot give your friend a coat if you do not own a coat, that doesn't mean you do not love him. But if you do have a coat you can spare and do not give it to him then perhaps you do not love him.

I don't think I'm going to extremes at all. Most people on this planet are poor, to the point that they cannot afford to give anything monetarily. So where does that leave them in light of James 2:15-16? Do you think scripture verses are simply for convenience, or do they really matter in relation to our beliefs?

But let's pretend for a minute that I used extreme examples. Does your view not include extreme cases?

If you want to hold to the notion that love is not real unless it manifests itself in action, then you must consider extreme cases.

If your view cannot be extended to the extremes, then you have an obligation to reconsider your view.

And I'm NOT saying you need to make a choice to believe differently, because it is not possible to decide to have a change of mind. But you have a responsibility to be convinced by sound judgment.

Love is expressed through action, the scriptures say, For God so loved the world that he GAVE his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Ok. I think you're either flip-flopping, back peddling, or you have a very sloppy way with words.

Yes. Love is definitely EXPRESSED through action. But love is not the action itself. Love MOTIVATES us to choose to act.

Love is the motivation behind the choice.

Of course, you cannot give what you do not have.

And I would agree with Luke that giving or doing something can be insincere and superficial.

But to say you love someone and not demonstrate it is not very believable.

There you go again being conflicted. First, you say that love is a choice. And then you throw in the notion of choosing to act - Jesus must have chosen to love because He chose to act.

But then when confronted with different (maybe extreme) lack of expressions, you become conflicted. What if someone's action is hindered because of their circumstances?

On one hand, you would have us believe that lack of action denotes lack of love. Then you turn around and say that it's possible for someone to not have the means to act, yet the love is still there. And you acknowledge that the choice to act can be present while the love is absent.

You should really settle on a position before continuing

 

[convicted1]

I choose to be.

Love is a choice, this is why God put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden, to give Adam and Eve the choice of loving and obeying him, or the choice or rejecting and disobeying him. God does not force or compel anyone to love him.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

Careful....you'll be labelled a "cheerleader"....

 

[convicted1]

WinMan I have a serious challenge for you.

Apply for a membership on this board and start your debating.

http://www.thecalvinistcafe.org/forum/

They'd eat his breakfast, lunch, supper and bedtime snack over there.