Love the sinner ?

See the lexical sources on the biblical meaning of "hate." They are more reliable then someone trying to support a preconceived notiong. Can I quote from some for you?? Thanks.

If your notion is that God does not love sinners, then:

1 - the Bible contradicts itself in regards to God's unconditional love for all the world, and

2 - none of us are loved by God, since all of us are sinners.

 

That's not my notion which you would know if you have read anything that I have said here Perhaps taking the time to read what is being said would help you.

 

Just a couple of comments:

But I don’t think this is the issue. The issue is, Do the words mean something clear and objective apart from the revelation of this interpretation by Christ? The answer is Yes. He properly interpreted them but he did so in accordance with the words, not in contradiction to them. That would be my point. To say that the meaning of the thoughts expressed by the words needs to be interpreted in light of Christ is clearly not how the OT was to be interpreted. It was to be interpreted in light of its own perspicuity, which is just how Jesus interpreted it. If you interpret it according to its own perspicuity, then you will interpret it as Jesus did.

By the words that they use. That is the oldest (and possibly most answered) objection in the book. The reality is that we all do this everyday in communication. I used words because I think you can understand my intent through them. It does not require that you know me personally. It requires that you know the language and its proper use. It requires that you use the univocal nature of language as a given (which you do without thinking about it). The reality is that you use my hermeneutic every day and every minute of your life because it is essential to communication. The biblical authors used words that they thought their reader would understand. That is axiomatic to communication. Now of course, we have limitations but that is so with every communication, as evidenced by ours above.

I don’t think there is a higher authority here. I think there is a return to the teaching of Moses in Gen 2 and a clarification of why there are exceptions (the hardness of hearts). Jesus was, in reality, upholding the authority of Scripture and explaining the Mosaic exceptions.

I believe it is the implication of your position. If you assert that Christ is the criteria for interpretation, then one without Christ (i.e. in the OT sense) cannot interpret it properly. I reject that and assert that Christ expected the reader to come to a proper conclusion based on the words without his interpretation of it.

 

I would like to see some scripture to support the notion of unconditional love. Is this notion aligned with God's infinite love?

Cheers,

Jim

[ November 28, 2002, 07:10 PM: Message edited by: Jim1999 ]

 

I would like to see some scripture to support the notion of unconditional love. Is this notion aligned with God's infinite love?

Many people confuse God's uncondional love with his conditional grace. Indeed God's love is infinite. But I don't find any biblical references that say we must do something to receive GOd's love (although there are several telling us what we must do to receive God's grace).

Just a thought.

 

Unconditional love of God is a myth promulgated through the social gospel and modern psychologists.

From a psychological viewpoint, it is based on the false notion that the human species can possibly love unconditionally. He will always have personal biases and these will apply themselves to whatever love he may offer.

From the gospel. If God loved unconditionally all humankind would be saved. This is a basis for universalism and, as stated, the social gospel.

Consider: John 14:21 "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me, and he that loveth me shall be loved of myFather, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him."

Humanism would love for us to water down the gospel and for us to use the common terms of humanity. We have something far better than what the world has to offer.."And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and HE THAT DWELLETH IN LOVE dwelleth in God, and God in him." 1 John 4:9,10, 16..not all quoted)

The doctrine of unconditional love is a myth that glorifies man rather than God.

Cheers,

Jim

 

Unconditional love of God is a myth promulgated through the social gospel and modern psychologists... If God loved unconditionally all humankind would be saved.

I disagree. God's salvation is a condition of his grace, not his love.

My love for my children does not change when they commit sinful or irresponsible actions. However, my giving of assistence to them is contingent on them being responsible.

Same with God's love. God loves us regardless of our actions or waywardness. But salvation is only given to those who are faithful.

 

Same with God's love. God loves us regardless of our actions or waywardness. But salvation is only given to those who are faithful.

_______________________________________________

As I said, it is conditional.

Cheers,

Jim

 

I fear I'm beating a dead horse.

 

Jesus and God
Same Person, different forms.

Jesus loved everyone.
God, however, did not, God only loved those who Jesus saved.
That is why Jesus is the meditator between man and God.

when it says "for God so loved the world..."
This means far more than it appears.
I cannot fully answer this, but we must stop looking at things from our perspective.

btw- Holiness is, to my best understanding, the key attribute of God

God is love, yes
God is peace, yes
God is just, yes
but God is "holy,holy,holy" -three times

 

I fear my dead and beaten horse has now been sold for glue.

 

For Bro Curtis
Loves Sinners hates sins?
YOU BET HE DOES!!

Psalm 5:4-6"...The foolish shall not stand in thy sight"...
I am soooo glad it will be one Christ Jesus
who will stand in for me.If a manis not in Christ ,he most assuredly will stand before the great Judge(who will be Christ)

Luke 15 is the picture of Love of sinners,in fact we are given 3 examples of how GOD loves sinners,
1.lost sheep
2.lost coin
3.Prodigal son

He says "I came not to call the righteous,(they only think that they are righteous)
but sinners to repentance(MK 2:17)

You are either in or out of the ARK(CHRIST JESUS)
Luke13:1-5
(Except you repent,ye shall all likewise perish)

Thank You
(Graduate of the same university as Bro Amos)

 

Johnv...

Dont Lose All Hope in Mankinds Ability to Understand God

Conditional Love For Self is a Child Like Revelation

Unconditional Love For All of Gods Creation is a Grown Up Revelation.

Jesus Said, It Is Finished. and Promised that Death will be Destroyed

We All Were Once Sinners....
But Now,...We Walk By Faith and Not By Sight...

(If Death Is to be Destroyed..WHO CAN BE Seperated From Gods Love?)

 

I don't think it is a difference between "Child like" and "grown up" revelation. That sounds like the claim of those in Corinth who claimed a special knowledge that no one else had; Paul condemned it. The question is, What does God say? What you think he said or what you wish he said is irrelevant. The content of his revelation is at issue.

 

Hi Larry...

1 John chapter 1 states that there are different levels of revelation.


Child, young man and Father...Each differing in the understanding of the nature of God towards the individual. and also the believers actions and reactions toward to their fellow man.

The understanding about the nature of submission to a sovereign God is taught to the individual in stages. Wouldn't it be a shock on the first day if God demands you to Love your Enemies ? Loving God means to Love your fellow man. To submit to their needs as fellow men and women born as a part of God the Fathers creation..and a continual growth process for the new believer in Christ.

All were Born with the Same needs as yourself...

Sanctification and the progression through the differing stages of growth has distinct earmarks..as described in 1 John.
War against the world, Flesh and Devil as well as progressive degrees of loving our fellow man
ie. Loving your brother..Loving your neighbor, and loving your enemies...

or said another way
as expressing forgiveness towards a brother, neighbor, and finally enemies.

I See It As Not A Revelation of knowing more but submitting more to God..which God in his uncanny ways proves this by allowing resistance..by allowing obstacles of somewhat unloving people to pass through our lives. To Allow us to be Tested..moving forward for more deeper choices of submission until finally we see our very enemies as someone who is to be shown mercy and forgiveness...

Some say we as believers should forgive and love..We Cant..Its Impossible as Carnal and Living in a world controlled by death, but we can submit to a sovereign God and allow Him to love and forgive and show mercy towards people of Whom He chooses through us.

Our Choice as believers is to desire the Faith that He knows better than us and to be able to see through Gods eyes that every individual is the same and deserves equality as ourselves..someone who need to be shown..mercy and forgiveness and Love of God.

We All have troubles with sin..We all continue to sin at SOME Level..its a continual expression of Jesus demanding soverignty and using our very weaknesses to show us as individuals.

but to be able to allow the expression of God to love through us to others is an indication of the submission to our lord and a comprehension that He Loves not only ourselves but Everyone. that everyone is treated fairly and equally and He Is A God For All and not for ourselves, or our little group, but for all of Mankind.

Thats UNCONDITIONAL LOVE.




[ December 01, 2002, 04:06 PM: Message edited by: Me2 ]

 

I think you are reading way more into that passage than is legitimate but that is not the issue here. The problem is that you have suggested that your understanding is grown up while ours is child like. Yet you have not substantiated that this difference is one bit biblical. You have suggested it because you don't like what we say. Your suggestion that you have a deeper more grown up knowledge was what Paul condemned in Scripture; it is known as a form of gnosticism. Biblical Christianity rejects it. I do not say that to run you out of biblical Christianity but hopefully to cause you to think through this issues a bit more before painting with the broad brush that you have painted with.

As I skim through your post, I do not find any great differences (though a closer reading would be appropriate). However, neither do I see any relevance to the topic at hand about God's revealed hatred for those who do iniquity.