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Lowell Davey boots John MacArthur

rockytopva

rockytopva

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In December 1989, the bbnradio.org terminated MacArthur's Grace to You program. In explaining that step, BBN president Lowell Davey referred to MacArthur's teachings on the blood of Christ and "Lordship salvation." Davey called these teachings "confusing". In a letter dated January 15, 1990, Davey cited a "drift by Dr. MacArthur to a theological position that we could not adhere to" and said that MacArthur's sermon series on the theology of election "convinced us that the direction of 'Grace to You' was toward Hyper-Calvinism." MacArthur preaches salvation by election of God's sovereignty.

I am a supporter of the bbnradio.org and agreed with the move. Though I am not Calvinist I do not consider all of John MacArthur's teachings bad.
 
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Yeshua1

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rockytopva said:
In December 1989, the bbnradio.org terminated MacArthur's Grace to You program. In explaining that step, BBN president Lowell Davey referred to MacArthur's teachings on the blood of Christ and "Lordship salvation." Davey called these teachings "confusing". In a letter dated January 15, 1990, Davey cited a "drift by Dr. MacArthur to a theological position that we could not adhere to" and said that MacArthur's sermon series on the theology of election "convinced us that the direction of 'Grace to You' was toward Hyper-Calvinism." MacArthur preaches salvation by election of God's sovereignty.

I am a supporter of the bbnradio.org and agreed with the move. Though I am not Calvinist I do not consider all of John MacArthur's teachings bad.
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The problem was that to them just 5 point "normal" Calvinism was Hyper!
 
Rob_BW

Rob_BW

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Seems to be two separate issues in view, and as previous threads on this site have shown, LS vs FG and Cal vs non-Cal don't always align.
 
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Yeshua1

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Rob_BW said:
Seems to be two separate issues in view, and as previous threads on this site have shown, LS vs FG and Cal vs non-Cal don't always align.
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True that, as one side calls other teaching loose living, other says supports legalism!
 
HankD

HankD

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rockytopva said:
In December 1989, the bbnradio.org terminated MacArthur's Grace to You program. In explaining that step, BBN president Lowell Davey referred to MacArthur's teachings on the blood of Christ and "Lordship salvation." Davey called these teachings "confusing". In a letter dated January 15, 1990, Davey cited a "drift by Dr. MacArthur to a theological position that we could not adhere to" and said that MacArthur's sermon series on the theology of election "convinced us that the direction of 'Grace to You' was toward Hyper-Calvinism." MacArthur preaches salvation by election of God's sovereignty.

I am a supporter of the bbnradio.org and agreed with the move. Though I am not Calvinist I do not consider all of John MacArthur's teachings bad.
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Lordship salvation to me is an issue of semantics but MacArthur's view of the blood of Christ is indeed confusing - to me anyway.
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
HankD said:
Lordship salvation to me is an issue of semantics but MacArthur's view of the blood of Christ is indeed confusing - to me anyway.
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There is baptismal regeneration, trusting in one's baptism.

There is prayer regeneration trusting in having said a prayer.

What is being called "Lordship salvation" the real error is trusting in one's confession.

The error is trusting in a work of one's faith rather than in the finished work of Christ.
 
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Yeshua1

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37818 said:
There is baptismal regeneration, trusting in one's baptism.

There is prayer regeneration trusting in having said a prayer.

What is being called "Lordship salvation" the real error is trusting in one's confession.

The error is trusting in a work of one's faith rather than in the finished work of Christ.
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Resting upon what I said instead of in Christ!
 
V

Van

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The problem, as I understand it, is if a Pastor teaches God chooses us "unconditionally" rather than "through or on the basis of faith" it is unacceptable to many Christians. Or Christ died only for the unconditionally chosen elect rather than all mankind, foreclosing the opportunity for salvation to all, it is unacceptable to many Christians. Or God crippling mankind such that they cannot trust in Christ, then condemning them to Hades/Gehenna for their foreordained sins.

All these false doctrines can be dropped if one accepts:

Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, all mankind.
God chooses individuals for salvation through or on the basis of crediting their faith as righteousness.
The Fall resulting in mankind having limited spiritual ability, able to understand and respond to spiritual milk but not spiritual solid food (meat).
God causes or allows all that comes to pass.
 
Particular

Particular

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Van said:
The problem, as I understand it, is if a Pastor teaches God chooses us "unconditionally" rather than "through or on the basis of faith" it is unacceptable to many Christians. Or Christ died only for the unconditionally chosen elect rather than all mankind, foreclosing the opportunity for salvation to all, it is unacceptable to many Christians. Or God crippling mankind such that they cannot trust in Christ, then condemning them to Hades/Gehenna for their foreordained sins.

All these false doctrines can be dropped if one accepts:

Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, all mankind.
God chooses individuals for salvation through or on the basis of crediting their faith as righteousness.
The Fall resulting in mankind having limited spiritual ability, able to understand and respond to spiritual milk but not spiritual solid food (meat).
God causes or allows all that comes to pass.
Click to expand...

The problem here is that to accept your proposal, I would have to accept false doctrines that the Bible does not affirm.

Instead, I can accept:
1) Christ is the propitiation and means of salvation for all whom the Father has given him.
2) God chose his adopted children from before the foundation of the world, having predestined them unto salvation.
3) The Fall resulted in man's spiritual corruption, thus eliminating his capacity to redeem himself. God must choose to save a person and grant them the faith to believe. Without this action by God, a man cannot be saved.
4) God ordains all things by his providential decree.

We can argue our positions from scripture and seek to sharpen each others walk with God or we can beat each other into senseless accusation. I find the first more profitable than the second.
 
V

Van

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Particular said:
The problem here is that to accept your proposal, I would have to accept false doctrines that the Bible does not affirm.

Instead, I can accept:
1) Christ is the propitiation and means of salvation for all whom the Father has given him.
2) God chose his adopted children from before the foundation of the world, having predestined them unto salvation.
3) The Fall resulted in man's spiritual corruption, thus eliminating his capacity to redeem himself. God must choose to save a person and grant them the faith to believe. Without this action by God, a man cannot be saved.
4) God ordains all things by his providential decree.

We can argue our positions from scripture and seek to sharpen each others walk with God or we can beat each other into senseless accusation. I find the first more profitable than the second.
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1) First you say my proposal contains false doctrines. Fair enough. Did you say why? Nope
2) The issue is not with "all the Father gives" to Christ, we agree, but where we disagree is that Christ is the means of salvation for all mankind, 1 John 2:2.
3) Adoption is future, not past, Romans 8:23. All given to Christ are predestined to adoption at Christ's second coming, and we have our indwelt Holy Spirit as the pledge for that future event.
4) No verse says anyone is predestined to be saved. What is predestined is God's actions once a person is saved, i.e. conformed to the image of Christ and our future adoption. Romans 8:28-29
5) No one said people redeem themselves. Deflection. God does not instill faith by irresistible faith, but He does allow (or not) people to come to faith. Those He hardens are not allowed.
6) Unless God draws a person, meaning calls the person through the gospel, they cannot be saved.
7) God "providential decree" is not found in scripture. God's desire that all people be saved (according to His redemption plan) is found in scripture. 1 Timothy 2:4
 
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Van

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Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, all mankind.
God chooses individuals for salvation through or on the basis of crediting their faith as righteousness.
The Fall resulting in mankind having limited spiritual ability, able to understand and respond to spiritual milk but not spiritual solid food (meat).
God causes or allows all that comes to pass.
 
A

AustinC

Well-Known Member
Van said:
Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, all mankind.
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Therefore all humanity, universally, is made perfect and holy.

God chooses individuals for salvation through or on the basis of crediting their faith as righteousness.
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Therefore, human willed faith is the work that God credits as that human beings form of righteousness.
Humans take the credit for building their own faith.

The Fall resulting in mankind having limited spiritual ability, able to understand and respond to spiritual milk but not spiritual solid food (meat).
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Yet, God said that Adam would surely die. Not limited spiritual ability. Total spiritual inability. Humans, at the fall, would have no capacity to choose redemption. God would need to choose to redeem humans.
Either that choice is on an individual basis or it is a universal choice.

God causes or allows all that comes to pass.
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God ordains all things for His glory.
 
V

Van

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AustinC said:
Therefore all humanity, universally, is made perfect and holy.

Therefore, human willed faith is the work that God credits as that human beings form of righteousness.
Humans take the credit for building their own faith.

Yet, God said that Adam would surely die. Not limited spiritual ability. Total spiritual inability. Humans, at the fall, would have no capacity to choose redemption. God would need to choose to redeem humans.
Either that choice is on an individual basis or it is a universal choice.

God ordains all things for His glory.
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Does AustinC really believe Jesus being the means of salvation means He has made everyone perfect? The assertion is obviously just a smoke screen to deflect from actual discussion.

Does God not credit our faith (or not) as righteousness? Of course He does, see Romans 4:4-5 and Romans 4:23-24.

How did Timothy know scripture from infancy if he had no spiritual ability? Again and again, Calvinism is shown to be bogus.
Did anyone say God did not choose to redeem humans? Nope so more deflection and no discussion. Sad

Did anyone say God does not choose individuals for salvation? Nope - so more deflection, more strawman, more smoke screen.

Does scripture say God ordains "all things?" No reference was provided. On the one hand Calvinists say God ordains whatsoever comes to pass, and then says God does not ordain sin. Cognitive dissonance.

Here again are the biblical doctrines Calvinism denies:
Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world, all mankind.
God chooses individuals for salvation through or on the basis of crediting their faith as righteousness.
The Fall resulting in mankind having limited spiritual ability, able to understand and respond to spiritual milk but not spiritual solid food (meat).
God causes or allows all that comes to pass.
 
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