Alex Quackenbush
New Member
I see, you started the thread feigning innocent and unsure what to make of it all and now reveal the truth, that you reject the teaching. Tsk tsk. Rather disingenuous.TaterTot said:
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Alex Quackenbush
New Member
Ezekiel 28 is a prophecy against the King of Tyre using the historical event of Satan's fall in an analogous fashion to describe the King of Tyre's eventual fall.
Verses 11-15 are most revealing:
Quote:
New International Version
11 The word of the LORD came to me: 12 "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.
While the context of the prophecy is Ezekiel speaking to the King of Tyre it is quite obvious that the King of Tyre was not in the Garden of Eden, the Garden of God nor was he anointed as a guardian cherub. And like prophecy, events past are used to describe events future or events present or future are described by events past. In this case the historical reality of Satan's fall, (Lucifer in Isa), is used to describe the nature of the King of Tyre's arrogance, offense and judgment.
Again in Isaiah the prophecy against the King of Babylon is made in the same way.
The Bible really does say that. It is unfortunate your child is being introduced to an issue that involves textual understandings and renderings far beyond her level of maturity and placed in the position to make a determination.
Verses 11-15 are most revealing:
Quote:
New International Version
11 The word of the LORD came to me: 12 "Son of man, take up a lament concerning the king of Tyre and say to him: 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says:
" 'You were the model of perfection,
full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden,
the garden of God;
every precious stone adorned you:
ruby, topaz and emerald,
chrysolite, onyx and jasper,
sapphire, turquoise and beryl.
Your settings and mountings were made of gold;
on the day you were created they were prepared.
14 You were anointed as a guardian cherub,
for so I ordained you.
You were on the holy mount of God;
you walked among the fiery stones.
15 You were blameless in your ways
from the day you were created
till wickedness was found in you.
While the context of the prophecy is Ezekiel speaking to the King of Tyre it is quite obvious that the King of Tyre was not in the Garden of Eden, the Garden of God nor was he anointed as a guardian cherub. And like prophecy, events past are used to describe events future or events present or future are described by events past. In this case the historical reality of Satan's fall, (Lucifer in Isa), is used to describe the nature of the King of Tyre's arrogance, offense and judgment.
Again in Isaiah the prophecy against the King of Babylon is made in the same way.
The Bible really does say that. It is unfortunate your child is being introduced to an issue that involves textual understandings and renderings far beyond her level of maturity and placed in the position to make a determination.
T
TaterTot
Guest
huh? I started the thread because I was rather surprised that I had believed this teaching all my life and only now do I find its not in the Bible. My intention was to see if others had the same experience.
standingfirminChrist
New Member
No humans were in the garden but Adam and Eve. How could the King of Sidon have been there? Procreation did not start until after Adam and Eve had been put out of the garden and the angel put in.
Scripture, as I pointed out, shows satan is 'that old serpent'.
Satan was who Isaiah was speaking about falling from heaven.
Scripture, as I pointed out, shows satan is 'that old serpent'.
Satan was who Isaiah was speaking about falling from heaven.
Bro. James Reed
New Member
Lucifer was King Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
Read up on him. The description of Lucifer fits him to a tee.
The problem with having Lucifer being a fallen angel means that sin can enter heaven. If sin can come into heaven once, who is to say it couldn't happen again?
Read up on him. The description of Lucifer fits him to a tee.
The problem with having Lucifer being a fallen angel means that sin can enter heaven. If sin can come into heaven once, who is to say it couldn't happen again?
Steven2006
New Member
Luk 10:18 And He said to them, "I was watching Satan fall from heaven like lightning.
PastorSBC1303
Active Member
Alex Quackenbush said:
What gives you the right to make this call?
I did not see anything disingenuous in the OP, but a rather honest question.
It seems that the adverary ("the satan") stood in the presence of God in the Book of Job... See Job 1:6-7 and Job 2:1-2.Bro. James Reed said:
Alex Quackenbush
New Member
The same right you have, it is called an observation and opinion. It is based on the initial post and then subsequent posture of the poster. But then what gives you the right to question my right? Right? Yeah, okay enough of the posturing and high horsing and stick to the OP.PastorSBC1303 said:
Alex Quackenbush
New Member
I just SHOWED you it is in the Bible. Let me post again and YOU demonstrate you are sincerely interested by providing an argument against what I post:TaterTot said:
Here is your original post:
TaterTot said:
Here is my response:
Alex Quackenbush said:
Let me guess, you actually think the King of Tyre was also in the Garden of Eden and anointed as a guardian cherub.
standingfirminChrist
New Member
tatertot,
And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. (Luke 10:18)
Satan fell from heaven.
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! (Isaiah 14:12)
Lucifer fell from heaven.
Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. (Ezekiel 28:13)
Lucifer was in the Garden.
Lucifer could not have been one of the cherubims placed in the garden to guard it, for God placed the faithful cherubim in the garden to guard every way to the garden lest man return and partake of the tree of life.
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? (Genesis 3:1)
The serpent was in the garden.
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, (Revelation 20:2)
The serpent is satan. Satan was in the garden. Satan was Lucifer.
Your daughter's teacher is correct to a point, she is incorrect in saying satan was an angel. He was not an angel. He was a cherubim. Cherubim were different from angels.
Satan is however, disguised as an angel of light.
Your husband needs to read the Word and teach your daughter truth. Lucifer was satan, he was in the garden, he was cast out of heaven.
And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven. (Luke 10:18)
Satan fell from heaven.
How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! (Isaiah 14:12)
Lucifer fell from heaven.
Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. (Ezekiel 28:13)
Lucifer was in the Garden.
Lucifer could not have been one of the cherubims placed in the garden to guard it, for God placed the faithful cherubim in the garden to guard every way to the garden lest man return and partake of the tree of life.
Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? (Genesis 3:1)
The serpent was in the garden.
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, (Revelation 20:2)
The serpent is satan. Satan was in the garden. Satan was Lucifer.
Your daughter's teacher is correct to a point, she is incorrect in saying satan was an angel. He was not an angel. He was a cherubim. Cherubim were different from angels.
Satan is however, disguised as an angel of light.
Your husband needs to read the Word and teach your daughter truth. Lucifer was satan, he was in the garden, he was cast out of heaven.
I'm in agreement with your husband on the reading of the Scriptures, but I don't think he was wise not to wait to correct her on this really insignificant misreading of the Scriptures until she was much more mature. Or maybe even wait until she reasoned it out for herself.TaterTot said:
Though it's a misreading, it's an ancient misreading, and the idea is not itself without merit. Pride goeth before a fall, and so anyone who has fallen, whether it be an individual or a collective, is a mirror somewhat of the fall of Satan. The children of the Devil, do the works of the Devil.
Bro. James Reed said:
Who (or what) then discussed Job with God? Are you stating that Satan never was in heaven?
Brother Bob
New Member
God talked with Moses, and Moses was not in Heaven. God talked with many others who were not in Heaven.
Brother Bob said:
Fascinating what can be read into or out of the written word. No wonder Christians are not united in understanding nor beliefs.
Ed Edwards
<img src=/Ed.gif>
'Lucifer' is a word straight from Latin (language ofStandingfirminChrist said:
the Roman Catholic Church /RCC/ ) to English.
Use of this name is WRONG DOCTRINE.
Here is one of my series: common mistakes made
in the KJVs that lead to Wrong Doctrine.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Title: Lucifer
Isa 14:12 (KJV1611 Edition):
How art thou fallen from heauen, ||O Lucifer, sonne of the morning?
how art thou cut downe to the ground, which didst weaken the nations?
Margin note: ||OR, O day-
starre.
Error Doctrine:
The name is 'Lucifer', his role is Lead Devil, his title is
'Satan' (the accuser).
This shows that what is being compared here is the King of Bayblon
and the planet Venus, AKA /also known as/: Day Star,
Morning Star, Evening Star (according to when seen in the sky).
Blows the "Satan's name is 'Lucifer' " doctrine right down the tubes.
We don't know the name of Satan What'shisname, the Lead Devil.
--------------------------------------------------------------
Yet the KJV1611 Edition blows it right out of the water with
a translator's margin note
Meanwhile, in Revelation 22:16:
Rev 22:16 (Geneva Bible 1599 Edition):
I Iesus haue sent mine Angell, to testifie vnto
you these things in the Churches: I am the root
and the generation of Dauid, and the bright morning starre.
Sorry folks, Jesus is NOT the planet venus. Venus
is the second planet from the sun; Jesus is my Lord
and Savior - a living person.
What we have here is a metaphor.
It is a literal metaphor.
If it said 'as the bright morning star' it would
be a literal simile.
So even if 'Lucifer' was about Satan,
it would be a metaphor also.
Jesus is like the real bright morning star;
Satan is like a phony bright morning star.
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Brother Bob
New Member
Especially when you have to try and read each others mind. Say what you mean and mean what you say!
T
TaterTot
Guest
I never said Lucifer wasnt Satan and that Lucifer wasnt an angel. I am stating that to teach that Lucifer was ...
1)the most beautiful of angels in heaven,
2)wanted more glory and power than God, so
3)God threw him out and began his career as Satan ...
cannot be backed up biblically, from what I can tell this far. None of you has supported that part of it.
1)the most beautiful of angels in heaven,
2)wanted more glory and power than God, so
3)God threw him out and began his career as Satan ...
cannot be backed up biblically, from what I can tell this far. None of you has supported that part of it.
Brother Bob
New Member
Well, for whats its worth, I have never believed that Lucifer was satan, but was a King who wanted to be as God but was cast down from his high horse. Also, I do not believe that Satan was ever in Heaven where God is. I think man has taken different scriptures from Ezek to Isa to Luke and have joined them together to form "false" doctrine. Lucifer is mention in the Bible "one" time and that is the King of Babylon, who said he would asscend into the Heavens but was brought down to hell. So, instead of going up, he went down.
If you were able to take away all mankind, Satan would cease to exist for he only exist as an evil spirit in the hearts and minds of men. When God destroyed the earth by water, did He say I will destroy man because he has gone the way of Satan, or did He say I will destroy man because his heart is evil??
BBob,
If you were able to take away all mankind, Satan would cease to exist for he only exist as an evil spirit in the hearts and minds of men. When God destroyed the earth by water, did He say I will destroy man because he has gone the way of Satan, or did He say I will destroy man because his heart is evil??
BBob,
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