Luke 17 and the Rapture

You asked (in the PM):

I replied:

I don't know how much plainer it can be.

 

http://www.angelfire.com/nt/books/daniel.html
http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/m.sion/da70fufu.htm

this might help you

 

I'd have to write a book to answer that; besides I admit to being 'rusty' on 'the 70 weeks', it's been several years since I studied it, mostly from reading the detailed work of Philip Mauro, 'The Seventy Weeks and the Great Tribulation'. Here's a link to it:

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/1921_mauro_seventy-weeks.html

Thanks for those essays Icon. Much briefer and straighter to the point than an entire book!

 

Excerpt from http://www.iclnet.org/pub/resources/text/m.sion/da70fufu.htm :

"THE DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM AND THE TEMPLE. This part of the prophecy was not dated within the framework of the 70 weeks as was the time of the appearance of Messiah to Israel, the time of his death, etc. Nevertheless, living on this side of the fulfillment, we know that the predicted destruction found fulfillment in 70 A.D. when the armies of Titus brought the city to desolation.

With Adam Clarke we say: "The whole of this prophecy from the times and corresponding events has been fulfilled to the very letter." (Clarke's Commentary, note on Daniel 9)"

 

Matthew 24: 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Mark 13:
29 So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors.
30 Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done.

Luke 21:
30When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

Seems really clear the Generation that won't pass away is the Generation that sees these come to pass, that would be the folks alive when all these signs of His coming become more and more frequent, the generation that sees the Snatching away of the church and the tribulation period as well as the Millenial Kingdom come, that generation shall not pass away.
Matthew 24:34, Mark 13:29 and Luke 21:31 all say when you (those believers alive at the time it happens) see these things come to pass then you will know the Kingdom is at hand and that generation that sees all these signs will not pass away. Clearly in scripture it was not the apostles generation althoug several of them saw it occur in visions such as John, possibly Peter and Paul. Christ goes further in these passages and says that no man knoweth the day and hour of His return so always be watchful, those ofthe early church were to be watchful for His return and they were, we are to be watchful for His return.

 

Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, Romans, 1 Corinthians, Galatians, Collosians and 2 Thessalonians all use the term Kingdom of God. All refer to a Kingdom that is inherited by the believers in Chrtist.

Matthew also says the Kingdom of Heaven, Matthew 25: 14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
Christ is right now on His journey and we are His servants given charge of the talents He has given us, He is in Heaven while we are here on earth working.

2 Samuel 7:16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.
17 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.

1 Kings 2:45 And king Solomon shall be blessed, and the throne of David shall be established before the LORD for ever.

Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this

2 Timothy 4: 1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

Psalms 89:3 I have made a covenant with my chosen, I have sworn unto David my servant,
4 Thy seed will I establish for ever, and build up thy throne to all generations. Selah.

20 I have found David my servant; with my holy oil have I anointed him:
21 With whom my hand shall be established: mine arm also shall strengthen him.
22 The enemy shall not exact upon him; nor the son of wickedness afflict him.
23 And I will beat down his foes before his face, and plague them that hate him.
24 But my faithfulness and my mercy shall be with him: and in my name shall his horn be exalted.
25 I will set his hand also in the sea, and his right hand in the rivers.
26 He shall cry unto me, Thou art my father, my God, and the rock of my salvation.
27 Also I will make him my firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth.
28 My mercy will I keep for him for evermore, and my covenant shall stand fast with him.
29 His seed also will I make to endure for ever, and his throne as the days of heaven.
30 If his children forsake my law, and walk not in my judgments;
31 If they break my statutes, and keep not my commandments;
32 Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
33 Nevertheless my lovingkindness will I not utterly take from him, nor suffer my faithfulness to fail.
34 My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips.
35 Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David.
36 His seed shall endure for ever, and his throne as the sun before me.
37 It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven. Selah.

All the passages above deal with the Messianic Kingdom in Which Christ as David's seed and God's first born (Ps. 89:27) will sit upon that throne. God made a covenant with David that the Messiah would sit upon His throne and rule over Israel, Isa. 9:6 says of Christ "...the government shall be upon his shoulder..." the Government has yet to set upon His shoulders but it will in the Millenial kingdom.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Notice the end of verse 4 "they lived and reigned with Christ a Thousand Years". Who does it say will reign with Him? Those of the tribulation period "I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands" very clear they refused to worship the image of the beast, they refused to receive his mark they will reign with Him for 1000 years. That Kingdom has yet to be established, it is yet to come. This is the Messianic Kingdom and the Millenial Kingdom of Christ and it will be on earth and has yet to Come. Christ is still coming and He is coming to judge, rule and reign upon the earth.
Before that happens the church will be sntched out and 7 years of tribulation will take place.

 

Destruction of the Temple

Kyredneck,
You make an unsupportable assumption that Jesus is talking about the
destruction of the Temple in Matthew 24:15 and Mark 13:14. In both
accounts Jesus refers to what happens in the midst of Daniel's 70th "7".
Neither account requires that armies encircle Jerusalem in the midst of
Daniel's 70th "7". Armies will encircle Jerusalem at the END of the final "7"!

But in Luke 21:20, Jesus is talking about the gathering of armies that
took place many years after the 70th "7" was completed according to
your understanding of the time it was fulfilled. You even ADMIT that
"this part of the prophecy" is not dated in the confines of the 70th "7"!!

You also make an unsupportable assumption that "this generation"
must refer to less than 40 years of the first century AD. When Jesus
affirmed that "some standing here" (meaning when He is about to
redeem Israel for the second time (Isa.11:11) after "gathering them
back to their land from all nations in the last days"...that they would
not taste death until they see Him coming in kingdom POWER". The
armies will be gathered against them at the end of the age when
"chronos-time is no longer" subject to a countdown!!!
Mark 16:27-28; Rev.10:6-7.

According to Revelation 10-11 (and Rev.12:10), Christ will come in
"Kingdom Power" to fulfill Mark 9:1 and Matt.16:27-28 when the Two Witnesses come from heaven for the final 1260 days of Daniel's 70th
"7". These two will finish their 1260-day task in the final days when "Chronos-Time is finished". This is the "end of time" display of God's
Kingdom Power (when some will be HERE to survive and see all these
things happening in the last days). "Some will not taste death" until
the 1260 days are finished and the "appointed Kairos-Time has come
to judge and reward the saints, both small and great AND to destroy
those who are destroying the earth". Rev.10:6-7; Rev.11:6-7,18.
Mel Miller
www.lastday.net

 

I must admit that this is a much better approach to explain away the time factor of that phrase 'This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled', than trying to make the greek word 'genea' mean something other than 'generation' in this context; but it still doesn't fit, at all.

That particular generation of Christ's day was a peculiar generation in that it had been foretold of through prophecy such as the Song of Moses [Dt 31:16 - Dt 32]. Only minutes earlier in the temple had Christ prophesied again concerning that particular generation:

33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?
34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. Mt 23

Christ is still referring to that particular generation in the Olivet Discourse.

 

I was listening to David Jeremiah this week proclaiming his dispensation fantasies. He said that "this generation" is the future generation of Jews that is on earth when Jesus returns. In other words, "this generation" means "that generation". So much for literal interpretation of scripture...

 

What things would come upon them?
The judgements prescribed in the Law and Jerusalem and nation Israel were taken into captivity yet again for their unbelief just as had been in the Babylonian captivity.
But then the scene changed in Cahpter 4 the disciples question of when shall these things be and the sign of your Kingdom (physical) coming. As He leaves the temple He prophsies its destruction, which was a short term prophecy fulfilled to prove the next long term prophecy would be fulfilled. As we use other scripture as proof text the Jews and those of that day used short term prophecy as proof of that the prophet was truthful. If His short term prophecy failed to be fulfilled then the longterm would not be fulfilled.
So once the disciples question was answered Christ gave longterm prophecy and the generation spoken of in Chapter 23 did go into captivity just as he said, then He talked about the signs of His coming and the Kingdom to come, the generation that would see it's fulfillment would not pass away, the two generations of Chapter 23 and 24 are not connected.
For debate sake let's say that the generation was of that day as you say.
Did John see these things happen, did He see Christ in His Kingdom, according to the book of Revelation He did, He saw it in a vision of the future. Did Peter see it, possibly in 2 Peter he says the Heaven and Earth will pass away and a new heaven and earth will come, did Paul very much seems so, he said the trump would sound and the dead in Christ would be raised and we who are alive and remain would meet them in the air. He talked about the Kingdom coming so he too was part of that generation, Christ said they would see the signs and they did, so that generation saw these things happen in visions (metaphorically) but they also knew that the fulfillment would be literal in the future, how far in the future only God knew that and He didn't show them the day nor the hour only that it would happen.
I really believe that the generation from chapter 24 of Matthew along with the other scriptures that says the same thing is the generation that sees the fulfillment but if you want to make it the generation of Christ time then they too saw it in vision form. Either way it remains future just as prophisied.

 

It is the according to the verse the generation that sees these signs, that would be those living in the time it happens.

Matthew 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

These are the signs the Chruch is to look for then comes the snatching away of the church and the real sorrows begin in verse 9.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.
13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Verse 33 to the generation that won't pass away "when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors" then Christ says "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled" till what is fulfilled everything He just prophisied from verse 4 forward, the generation that the snatching away of the church brings, that go through the Tribulation and that see the 2nd Coming of Christ, that Generation will not pass away until all has been fulfilled. That generation could not have been the one of Jesus day because it has not all been fulfilled.

 

Curious...if Christ stated He would build His church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it...how can the church be subject to dismantling at the hands of the antichrist?

 

You left off some important verses:

(24:1) Then Jesus went out and departed from the temple, and His disciples came up to show Him the buildings of the temple.
(24:2) And Jesus said to them, "Do you not see all these things? Assuredly, I say to you, not one stone shall be left here upon another, that shall not be thrown down."
(24:3) Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"

(bold and underline added)

So the entire discourse is related to the destruction of the temple in 70 a.d. and the events surrounding it. Matthew 24 is not intelligible with any other interpretation.

 

Verses 1 through 3 we see them leaving the Temple Christ tells them the temple will be destroyed, they walk as we know to the Mount of Olives. Wonder if Jesus talked to them about the destruction of the temple on the way and explained it we don't know because it wasn't recorded.
Then they when sahll these things be and the sign of your coming?
He doesn't say 70 A.D. he doesn't even say in about 40 years. I also see nothing in the sign of His coming about the destruction of the temple, please show in the signs after their question where He said the temple would be destroyed.
Also from scripture or historical record can you show where the Abomination theat maketh Desolate Stood in the Holy Place as Daniel and Christ state. Daniel said it would be there 1290 days or 3 1/2 years, so we must see as John states the image of the Beast standing in the Temple to make it desolate.
Revelation must be explained also in connection with this passage, the beast and False Prophet must reign, the sign of the beast must be the only means of buying or selling. All these things must connect. The first 2 verses have nothing to do with the rest ofthe chapter, in fact there were no chapters to what was written.

 

What gets overlooked a lot of the time while discussing Oliver Discourse is this passage

3 As He was sitting on (D)the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things happen, and what will be the sign of (E)Your coming, and of the end of the age?”

Note that Jesus was answering ALL 3 questions in one big answer, and that there was a partial fulfillment of His prediction in AD 70, BUT there is also a full future fulfillment still to come!

 

How can you wonder if he talked to them about the temple? What do you think they were talking about when they said, "when shall these things be"?

No, but he does say, "this generation".

The "signs" pointed to the coming judgment, the days of God's vengeance on His enemies, the Christ-rejecting nation of Mosaic Israel.

You don't know what Titus did to the temple?

I will try to understand and comment on that if you'll show me where the Bible says that Daniel's prophecy is a future event.

Yes, it must be explained. If we view Revelation in light of Matthew 24, don't we get a clear picture of the Jewish Apocalypse - the end of the Mosaic Era?

 

Where in Jesus' discourse to you find a division in time?

 

except that Daniel and Revealtion have NOT a Jewish Apocalypse in view, but have a world wide Apocaypse, one that could/would have destroyed "all flesh" IF the Messiah had not returned to intervene!

A time of war and troubles like NOTHING ever seen before upon this earth, that ALL life could very well die...

This is NOT what happened in AD 70, did NOT have a third of the World population die, did NOT have antichrist establish himself a s world ruler!