Luke 17 and the Rapture

If you want to put the events of Revelation in the future, have at it. I think some of it is (the resurrection). But you cannot put Matthew 24 outside of "this generation" - the generation that living in 70 a.d. It won't work.

By the way research your Bible for "The Antichrist" that rules the world and quote the passage.

 

Sorry if I try to quote you it is all garbled up so I will place quotation marks.
"JD stated No, but he does say, "this generation"." Again this generation Matthew 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

This says that the Generation that shall see all these things, all the signs will not pass away. That is the Tribulational generation, the ones in the last week of Daniels prophecy, the many that shall be purified and made white and then tried, the wicked shall be with them,

Daniel 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.
J.D. stated "
I will try to understand and comment on that if you'll show me where the Bible says that Daniel's prophecy is a future event." Notice verse 11 1290 days the Abomination will stand once it is set up. John says in revelation the False Prophet (False Messiah) Revelation 13:
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon

Notice here this beast (False Prophet) resembles the lamb but speaks like a dragon. This is the (False Messiah) He did not exist in 70 A.D. Notice He comes up out of the Earth many say the earth is areference to Nation Israel where as the Beast out ofthe Sea is seen as coming out of the World.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed
13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

There was no false Messiah in 70 A.D. no image of a Beast because the Beast did not exist and the Image couldn't have been made to speak or come alive since it did not exist. This image is the Abomination which maketh the temple desolate. Notice that the Temple will exist because for the first part of the Tribulation they will offer scrifices. All this is yet future and part of Daniel 70th week.


JD Stated "Yes, it must be explained. If we view Revelation in light of Matthew 24, don't we get a clear picture of the Jewish Apocalypse - the end of the Mosaic Era?"

Does Israel have a future Revelation 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
notice the Woman is a symbol of Israel during this time when the Dragon is chasing the woman and her Son, The Son is The Messiah and He has been caught up to God and is sitting on His Throne as Chirst does today. The true Jews that refuse the Beast and False Prophets flee to the wilderness and are nourished by God for 1260 days.
At that point Satan is cast to the earth with his angels then in chapter 13 comes the beast and the False Prophet who make up the unholy trinity.
Daniel is yet future as too are the events of Revelation 4 and following.

 

The person who is called the "Great beast" and that all who do not receive his mark, the mark of the Beast will be put to death?

the Man of Sin, who will be slain at the glorious apprearance of jesus at his Second Coming? Who procalimed himself as being God?

When did this person set himself up as being God, had the mark of the beast, and was slain when jesus returned in His "glory" in AD 70?

 

There in lies the problem you have the "generation" as that living when Christ taught His disciples. But what about the text surrounding it?

Matthew 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

What generation the generation that shall see all those signs and things come to pass, that would be the generation that is living at the time the church is snatched away and the tribulation begins. It is near when those signs become more and more apparant, like in our day we see Matthew 24:6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.
7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

This is taking place all around us becoming more and more a way of life for us.
So we just may be the generation that doesn't pass until all these things be fulfilled or it could be the next or even the next but it is getting closer and closer. But it is very clear that Christ was saying the generation that sees all this will not pass till these things be fulfilled.

 

Well, I have to logoff soon, and this is starting in a circle (Bible says "this generation, you say "that generation", ") so I'll let this one stand without a response from me.

 

exactly!
Jesus not referring to the generation that actually heard his answer, but to the one that was alive when "all of these things" were coming to pass!

 

Let me re-word it: Show me a verse, just one, that says that "Antichrist" or "The Antichrist" ever has or ever will rule the world.

 

Slip of the finger but here is the Greek word for the word translated this in the "this generation" statement.

Strong's Number: 3778 ouùtov
Original Word Word Origin
ouùtov from the article (3588) and (846)
Transliterated Word Phonetic Spelling
Houtos hoo'-tos
Parts of Speech TDNT
pronoun None
Definition
this, these, etc.

Translated Words
KJV (356) - he, 31; misc, 34; she, 12; the same, 28; these, 59; they, 10; this, 157; this man, 25;
NAS (506) - afterward, 3; especially, 1; fact, 2; follow, 1; here, 1; hereafter, 1; man, 1; now, 1; one, 2; one whom, 1; partly, 1; person, 1; present, 1; same, 1; so, 1; so then, 1; some, 2; such, 2; therefore, 16; these, 179; these men, 10; these people, 1; these things, 192; these...things, 1; this, 1; this man, 56; this man's, 2; this one, 4; this reason, 1; this thing, 2; this way, 1; this woman, 4; this...thing, 1; those, 2; those things, 1; very, 3; very thing, 2; who, 2; whom, 1;

 

Not WHOLE World, but the western nations, under a 'revived" roman empire, as he will be dealing with isreal on one side and Orient nations on other!

 

You are missing his point the term anti-christ is not used for the beast nor the false prophet. Now the term is used all in 1st and second John and only four times.

So when you refer to the evil one coming the common term used by many in our antichrist cannot be used. Use the biblical term, Now I believe that the second beast the false prophet, (false Messiah) with the two horns would be the one referred to and he only rules in Israel, it is the Beast that rules above him that is commonly called the antichrist Revleation 13: 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

Now He rules "over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations" but nowhere is he called antichrist or the antichrist He is the beast from the sea (world) that will rule.

 

Okay, show me a verse of scripture that says that. I'm asking for SCRIPTURE. That's all. Logging off now for a while.

 

Gotcha!

Wonder when in history past though our partial/full Pretierist Christians see that actually already happening?

 

In typical dispy fashion it complicates and disconnects, and in this instance destroys the underlying continuity of the scriptures concerning that very wicked generation. They're called serpents and offspring of vipers by Christ and John the Baptist and specifically singled out by Moses some 1400 years earlier where he plainly states “they are not His children”:

21 And it shall come to pass, when many evils and troubles are come upon them, that this song shall testify before them as a witness; for it shall not be forgotten out of the mouths of their seed: for I know their imagination which they frame this day, before I have brought them into the land which I sware.
22 So Moses wrote this song the same day, and taught it the children of Israel.
29 For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do that which is evil in the sight of Jehovah, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands. Dt 31
5 They have dealt corruptly with him, they are not his children, it is their blemish; They are a perverse and crooked generation.
20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: For they are a very perverse generation, Children in whom is no faithfulness.
21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; They have provoked me to anger with their vanities: And I will move them to jealousy with those that are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. Dt 32

8 Then certain of the scribes and Pharisees answered him, saying, Teacher, we would see a sign from thee.
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given it but the sign of Jonah the prophet:
40 for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41 The men of Nineveh shall stand up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, a greater than Jonah is here.
42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
43 But the unclean spirit, when he is gone out of the man, passeth through waterless places, seeking rest, and findeth it not.
44 Then he saith, I will return into my house whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man becometh worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this evil generation. Mt 12

1 And the Pharisees and Sadducees came, and trying him asked him to show them a sign from heaven.
2 But he answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the heaven is red.
3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to-day: for the heaven is red and lowering. Ye know how to discern the face of the heaven; but ye cannot discern the signs of the times.
4 An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of Jonah. And he left them, and departed. Mt 16

24 for as the lightning, when it lighteneth out of the one part under the heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall the Son of man be in his day.
25 But first must he suffer many things and be rejected of this generation. Lu 17

33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?
34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. Mt 23

22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lk 21

16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the marketplaces, who call unto their fellows
17 and say, We piped unto you, and ye did not dance; we wailed, and ye did not mourn.
18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a demon.
19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold, a gluttonous man and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners! And wisdom is justified by her works. Mt 11

40 And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation. Acts 2



And Josephus certainly had nothing good to say of them:

“It is therefore impossible to go distinctly over every instance of these men's iniquity. I shall therefore speak my mind here at once briefly: - That neither did any other city ever suffer such miseries, nor did any age ever breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness than this was, from the beginning of the world.....” Book 5, ch 10, sec. 5

“.. I suppose, that had the Romans made any longer delay in coming against these villains, that the city would either have been swallowed up by the ground opening upon them, or been overflowed by water, or else been destroyed by such thunder as the country of Sodom (20) perished by, for it had brought forth a generation of men much more atheistical than were those that suffered such punishments; for by their madness it was that all the people came to be destroyed....” Book 5, ch. 13, sec. 6

“....and I cannot but think that it was because God had doomed this city to destruction, as a polluted city, and was resolved to purge his sanctuary by fire, that he cut off these their great defenders and well-wishers, while those that a little before had worn the sacred garments, and had presided over the public worship; and had been esteemed venerable by those that dwelt on the whole habitable earth when they came into our city, were cast out naked, and seen to be the food of dogs and wild beasts. And I cannot but imagine that virtue itself groaned at these men's case, and lamented that she was here so terribly conquered by wickedness.....” Book 4, ch. 5, sec. 2

 

He let Rome destroy it just as Nebechadnezeer had in the first captivity. He brought them back from that captivity and has Promised the That the Son of David will rule on the Throne of David in the future of Israel with the temple intact. Scripture on a previous post.

 

Still looking for the part that has been fulfilled of this earth being turned back into a paradise again, ruled over by Messiah, with isreal again in peace, and ALL nations coming to Jerusalem to pay homage to the King of Isreal/Messiah jesus CHrist!
And more importantly...

We all got our glorified bodies, and rightousness reigns over ALL the earth...
Was that all done AD 70, did I miss it?

 

Are you asking me? You really should read 'Wars of the Jews' and 'Antiquty of the Jews' by Josephus.

I would have to say the primary source of their woes was division amongst themselves and self destruction:

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1671933#post1671933

I'm like J.D.. This is beginning to go nowhere. I believe I'm done here.

 

Especially since the "this generation" has been proven to be the generation that sees all these things and is yet future. Not fulfilled in 70 A.D.

 

You've proven nothing. Don't fool yourself.

 

It is telling though that those who hold to pretierism, either full/partial , have to it seems find their answers in wriitings outside of the Bible, while Futurists find them in the Bible!

 

By verse just ahead of the "this Generation" verse says Matt. 24:33 "...when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. then the next verse says 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled." So let's see what we see here, "when ye shall see all these things know that it is near, even at the door," what is near, verse 3 "...Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?" Then we see that this generation shall not pass, what generation the generation that sees "these things" the things Christ just spoke of, they will not pass till all these things that Christ just spoke of have been fulfilled. Since they weren't fulfilled in 70 A.D. then that would prove it is yet to come, it is yet future.