Luther vs. Calvin, and Baptists

[ntchristian]

I consider myself a student of church history. For quite a while, I have wondered why Baptists were influenced more by Calvin than by Luther. While I don't believe either was that close to the NT, I believe Luther was much more so than Calvin. Could it be because early Baptists in England had closer contact with Calvinists than they did with Lutherans? I know, btw, that the General Baptists were influenced by and had contact with Mennonites but that the Particular Baptists were Calvinistic.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

 

[rsr]

The Particulars arose from English Puritanism, which was highly indebted to Calvin for their soteriology. They arose specifically from the Separatist branch of Puritanism, i.e., Congregationalism, which explains why the Second London Confession relies on the Savoy Declaration in addition to the Westminster Confession.

 

[DaveXR650]

In this country, there have always been Primitive Baptists which I think are Calvinistic and Particular Baptists. But the Calvinism you seen in the churches recently is coming from the Young Restless and Reformed movement that occurred right around the time the social media technology became important. Some sociologist has a book out on this if you're interested. There is a book by Martyn Lloyd Jones called "The Puritans" which is basically his speeches made at a conference that were held annually in the 60's and up to around 1974, where they studied Puritan writings. Someone had discovered a lot of out of print Puritan writings and started publishing them. At the same time, and I don't know if there was any connection, John Piper popularized Jonathan Edwards. The movement that occurred was mostly people "becoming Calvinist" within Baptist churches. At the same time Baptist colleges started turning out a lot of new seminary degreed students with a Calvinistic outlook. Among Southern Baptists and Fundamental Baptists the relationship with Calvinism was not always friendly. I heard of hostile takeovers of non-Calvinist churches and I saw personally purges of Calvinists from Baptist churches. It was not pretty. But is is fascinating.

 

[DaveXR650]

nt. There it is. I don't have any connection and have not read the book but it sounds interesting.

 

[JesusFan]

I consider myself a student of church history. For quite a while, I have wondered why Baptists were influenced more by Calvin than by Luther. While I don't believe either was that close to the NT, I believe Luther was much more so than Calvin. Could it be because early Baptists in England had closer contact with Calvinists than they did with Lutherans? I know, btw, that the General Baptists were influenced by and had contact with Mennonites but that the Particular Baptists were Calvinistic.

Anyone have any thoughts on this?

Calvin was more consistent in his Sotierology!

 

[rsr]

Also remember Calvin's debt to Zwingli, whose conception of the Eucharist was very much different than Luther's, partly based on differences in Christology, and to Zwingli's conception of the meaning of baptism.

 

[Reformed1689]

This is the problem of labeling Calvinists Calvinists and assuming that means their entire theology matches Calvin. Honestly, that label is really just relating to Soteriology (for the most part).

 

[kyredneck]

This is the problem of labeling Calvinists Calvinists and assuming that means their entire theology matches Calvin. Honestly, that label is really just relating to Soteriology (for the most part).

'Monergist' is less specific than 'Calvinist' and is a better fit for most 'Sovereign Gracers'.

 

[Reformed1689]

'Monergist' is less specific than 'Calvinist' and is a better fit for most 'Sovereign Gracers'.

Biblical Christian is an even better fit

 

[JesusFan]

Also remember Calvin's debt to Zwingli, whose conception of the Eucharist was very much different than Luther's, partly based on differences in Christology, and to Zwingli's conception of the meaning of baptism.

was not their view on the Communion itself nearly split apart the reformers?

 

[JesusFan]

This is the problem of labeling Calvinists Calvinists and assuming that means their entire theology matches Calvin. Honestly, that label is really just relating to Soteriology (for the most part).

true, as many more Calvinist then reformed baptists!

 

[Reformed1689]

true, as many more Calvinist then reformed baptists!

Exactly. There are many things I disagree with Calvin on, such as infant baptism, but I am still in the Calvinist Camp because when people talk about Calvinism, they generally are just speaking of the 5 points which have nothing to do with Calvin originally.

 

[DaveXR650]

Yes, I'm not a member but I lurk sometimes over on the puritan board and a lot of Calvinists don't consider reformed Baptists truly "reformed" or truly "Calvinist". Of course, baptism is the big issue. But some are aware of differences on the Lord's Supper (communion). The most enthusiastic Calvinists I know of are reformed Baptists but that's because Baptists are enthusiastic and argumentative.

 

[rsr]

was not their view on the Communion itself nearly split apart the reformers?

Not "nearly." It sundered the Lutherans from the Reformed (broadly speaking), preventing a united front against the Counter-Reformation. Or something like that.

(The dispute with the Reformed seems a bit over the top if you consider that the Lutherans attempted to form common cause with the Orthodox Patriarch of Constantinople, to no avail.)

 

[JesusFan]

Exactly. There are many things I disagree with Calvin on, such as infant baptism, but I am still in the Calvinist Camp because when people talk about Calvinism, they generally are just speaking of the 5 points which have nothing to do with Calvin originally.

Agreed, as many who are Baptists gladly accept doctrines of grace, but balk at accepting Confessions and full blown Covenant theology

 

[JesusFan]

Not "nearly." It sundered the Lutherans from the Reformed (broadly speaking), preventing a united front against the Counter-Reformation. Or something like that.

(The dispute with the Reformed seems a bit over the top if you consider that the Lutherans attempted to form common cause with the Orthodox Patriarch of Constantinople, to no avail.)

Lutherans almost like reformed Catholics, as they seem to be ones closest to Rome in theology and views on the sacraments!

 

[Jerome]

The precise term for 5Point/TULIP advocacy is Gomarism:

Dictionary of Religion

"Gomarists or Anti-Remonstrants. —The opponents of the Arminians. They take their name from their leader, Francis Gomar, who was born at Bruges in 1563. He commenced his studies at Strasburg and Heidelberg, and in 1582 came to England, and went first to Oxford and then to Cambridge, where he took his B. D. in 1581. In 1594 he was elected Professor of Divinity at Leyden, and he is chiefly known for his violent opposition to the doctrines of his colleague Arminius. He was present at the Synod of Dort, in 1618, and was the main instrument in getting the Arminians expelled from the Reformed Church....He was a man of great learning, and very bigoted in his views"

 

[kyredneck]

The precise term for 5Point/TULIP advocacy is Gomarism:

I ain't no 'Gomarist', I'm a 'Monergist'.

Synergism: the doctrine that the human will cooperates with the Holy Ghost in the work of regeneration.

Monergism: the doctrine that the Holy Ghost acts independently of the human will in the work of regeneration.

 

[JesusFan]

Yes, I'm not a member but I lurk sometimes over on the puritan board and a lot of Calvinists don't consider reformed Baptists truly "reformed" or truly "Calvinist". Of course, baptism is the big issue. But some are aware of differences on the Lord's Supper (communion). The most enthusiastic Calvinists I know of are reformed Baptists but that's because Baptists are enthusiastic and argumentative.

Indeed, those Presby Christians over there seem to barely tolerate we baptist Calvinists!

 

[Walter]

Lutherans almost like reformed Catholics, as they seem to be ones closest to Rome in theology and views on the sacraments!

Yeshua1: Are you sure they are the closest to Rome in theology and views of the sacraments. Have you studies the Anglican Church and Anglo-Catholics in particular?