Lutheran changes his mind:

[Jim1999]

I can't read the small type, so I am virtually backing off from this discussion.

I will say this, however, I read my Bible and assimulate information from it, historically, culturally and theologically. As I read and assimilate this information, I believe God, the Holy Spirit, teaches me certain truths. He teaches as much as I need to know at the moment. Sometimes it takes years to have a given passage explode in my understanding and it becomes a new truth. I think this is how the study of scripture works.

How many times has this happened in the secular realm? A teacher tries every avenue to explain something. We continue in a daze. Then, at 2:AM one morning we awake, sit up in bed and say, "Now I get it! Yes, that is quite clear. Why was I so stupid? I find the same thing happening all the time with very familiar passages of scripture.

Cheers,

Jim

 

[J. Jump]

And the mechanics of conversion is one of those things that the Word is silent about.

I would disagree with that somewhat. We don't know the details of how one is drawn to Christ (because there are various ways), but once a person receives by faith God's grace (which is based on the hearing of the Word) the Holy Spirit breathes life into the dead man's spirit. He becomes spiritually alive and secure for all eternity.

We are shown this process in Genesis 1:2. That's God's method of restoration. The Holy Spirit moves, God speaks (based on the finish work of Jesus) and Light comes into existence.

 

[J. Jump]

He teaches as much as I need to know at the moment. Sometimes it takes years to have a given passage explode in my understanding and it becomes a new truth. I think this is how the study of scripture works.

Amen and amen!

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

If I do something to actively take something it is no longer a gift. Accept by its very nature denotes actively doing something in order to gain it or its benefits. It implies that the person performed an action in order to recieve something, in the case of many American Evangelicals, their decision or their making Jesus Lord of their life. All of these are indicitive of a belief that is by their own works they can recieve the benefits of Christ's sacrifice.

Without the regenerating power of God, no man would ever accept Christ. With it, no man would ever refuse Christ. They are not resting in their own actions, but their actions are a result of what God did for them. They are, therefore, in no way resting in their own work, but the work of God.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Yeah it continues to amaze me that Christians think that God has revealed Himself to us in Scripture only to keep Himself hidden. It doesn't even make sense.

It seems to me that Jesus was not amazed by this idea:

45Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. 48You are witnesses of these things. 49I am going to send you what my Father has promised; but stay in the city until you have been clothed with power from on high."

Luke 24:45-49

Joseph Botwinick

 

[J. Jump]

Joseph you are talking about apples and oranges. Everything has been revealed and all the mysteries have been explained that were contained. There isn't anything in God's Scriptures that is not understandable.

Because if that is true then the Scripture is a lie, because it says the Holy Spirit is capable of leading us into ALL truth, not just partial truth, but ALL truth.

The passage that you are talking about was before the Holy Spirit indwelt saved people.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

JJ,

You are correct that Scripture is perfectly clear to those who have been saved and are led by the Holy Spirit of God because the message of the cross is the power of God for those who are being saved (1 Corinthians 1). It is also, however, foolishness to those who are perishing because their minds have not been opened to recieve or understand the truth of God's Word by faith.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[J. Jump]

You are correct that Scripture is perfectly clear to those who have been saved and are led by the Holy Spirit of God because the message of the cross is the power of God for those who are being saved (1 Corinthians 1). It is also, however, foolishness to those who are perishing because their minds have not been opened to recieve or understand the truth of God's Word by faith.

It seems as though you are saying this passage applies to those who are saved and those you are unsaved, but the passage was written to saved people and is speaking of saved people, not unsaved people.

How can someone who is already dead (spiritually, not physically) be perishing? They are either dead or not. A dead man can not perish, because he is already dead.

Those that are perishing are those that are saved, but are not moving away from the milk of the Word onto the meat of the Word and then on to strong meat.

 

[Joseph_Botwinick]

Interesting perspective. Never heard it that way before. I will think about that.

Joseph Botwinick

 

[BobRyan]

Anybody willing to trust in their decision is trusting in their works.

The word "accept" in and of itself is a confession that they are trusting in something they did. They are not trusting in the vicarious satisfaction of Christ but in their own ability to accept something.

Agreed - acceptance, belief and repentance are "Works" but STILL this is not salavtion by works ANY MORE than John 14:15 "IF you Love Me KEEP My commandments" is kingdom by works, or salvation by works, or heaven by works.

Rom 10

8 But what does it say? "THE WORD IS NEAR YOU, IN YOUR MOUTH AND IN YOUR HEART"--that is, the word of faith which we are preaching,
9 that [b]if you confess[/b] with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and [b]with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation. [/b]
11 For the Scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES[/b] IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."

Notice all the "Believing" and "confessing" that happens before salvation?

Hmmm - kinda makes you want to accept the truth of the Arminian POV.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[Chemnitz]

Only if you seperate them from the rest of the bible. The only one who could confess the Lord with heart and mind is a person already indwelt by the Spirit and anybody in that state is already saved.