Lutheran salvation theology

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I am visiting with a a Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Church on Sunday to "Hopefully" find a place in my community for fellowship. I am a committed Salvation by Grace / Doctrines By Grace theology believer & a Credo Baptist.

I liked my initial telephone conversation with the Pastor but I also recognize many differences that will preclude me from considering joining.

Therefore Id like some explanation on the Lutheran Salvation theology so Im better informed.

Please advise....thanks

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

OK .... I will start. On ELECTION, Luther embraced Unconditional Election. Basing his commentary on 1 Peter 1:2

New International Version (NIV)

2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:

Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
"They are chosen...not by themselves but according to God's arrangement...The human doctrine of free will and of our powers no longer amounts to anything. Our will is unimportant; God's will & choosing are decisive."

So according to Martin Luther....from what I understand--"FAITH" is the result of divine election, not the basis for it.

Now is this what modern Lutherans believe today....particularly WELS Lutherans?

 

[Jerome]

WELS has a neat "Dear Abby"-style feature on its website that gives the denomination's views on varied subjects:

http://www.wels.net/what-we-believe/questions-answers/fellowship

 

[billwald]

'The Book Of Concord" is the official Lutheran "bible"

http://bookofconcord.org/

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

'The Book Of Concord" is the official Lutheran "bible"

http://bookofconcord.org/

Yea well I will bring my NKJ to the bible study & see what they say.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

I have either been a part of or worshiped with the following over the years: Southern Baptist, Independent Baptist, United Methodist, Church of God of Prophecy, Episcopal, Charismatic, Quakers, Church of the Nazarene, Presbyterian, and there may be some that I don't remember. :laugh:

I have found agreements and disagreements with them all, but I have found fellowship, too. I couldn't be a member in all of these, but I could interact and fellowship with them all - as we all see through a glass, darkly.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I have either been a part of or worshiped with the following over the years: Southern Baptist, Independent Baptist, United Methodist, Church of God of Prophecy, Episcopal, Charismatic, Quakers, Church of the Nazarene, Presbyterian, and there may be some that I don't remember. :laugh:

I have found agreements and disagreements with them all, but I have found fellowship, too. I couldn't be a member in all of these, but I could interact and fellowship with them all - as we all see through a glass, darkly.

Yes Michael, but I primarily became both a Baptist because I believe Credo baptism & not Paedo baptism, is biblical....and I also see Definite Atonement as a secure salvation while Universal Atonement does not secure the salvation of any. These, and the sacramental stuff, I view as Roman Catholic holdovers. I perhaps can have fellowship with them, but would certainly never ever join or have any family members join. I would consider that one step forward & a million steps backward.

 

[Michael Wrenn]

Yes Michael, but I primarily became both a Baptist because I believe Credo baptism & not Paedo baptism, is biblical....and I also see Definite Atonement as a secure salvation while Universal Atonement does not secure the salvation of any. These, and the sacramental stuff, I view as Roman Catholic holdovers. I perhaps can have fellowship with them, but would certainly never ever join or have any family members join. I would consider that one step forward & a million steps backward.

I certainly understand. I was just trying to encourage you in your situation and give you hope that you can find the fellowship you seek. Maybe you and the Lutherans can learn from each other, to the point that it can be mutually beneficial.

 

[Yeshua1]

OK .... I will start. On ELECTION, Luther embraced Unconditional Election. Basing his commentary on 1 Peter 1:2

New International Version (NIV)

2 who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to be obedient to Jesus Christ and sprinkled with his blood:

Grace and peace be yours in abundance.
"They are chosen...not by themselves but according to God's arrangement...The human doctrine of free will and of our powers no longer amounts to anything. Our will is unimportant; God's will & choosing are decisive."

So according to Martin Luther....from what I understand--"FAITH" is the result of divine election, not the basis for it.

Now is this what modern Lutherans believe today....particularly WELS Lutherans?

I see them as being 'tweeners", in the sense they do not hold to full blown Sacramentalism as RCC does, but DO indeed hold to regeneration of the infants in the water baptism...

Would see them as nbeing akin to say Anglicans, who have sacraments mixed along with the bible and Gospel...

remember also that martin Luthor is the final say in how they view the truths of scriptures...

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I certainly understand. I was just trying to encourage you in your situation and give you hope that you can find the fellowship you seek. Maybe you and the Lutherans can learn from each other, to the point that it can be mutually beneficial.

Well thank you Michael....thats very gracious of you & I sincerely hope so too. As a matter of fact,it's encouraged me to read up & examine the Lutheran movement much more.

I also hear they like to sing & thats music to any Welshmans heart!!!

Lastly by the names of these folks ...think there mostly German & they are a clean & well organized people....I like that since my wifes family on her dads side are all Prussians. Maybe they know where there is an Octoberfest....wouldnt that be cool! Das Auto...:laugh:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I see them as being 'tweeners", in the sense they do not hold to full blown Sacramental ism as RCC does, but DO indeed hold to regeneration of the infants in the water baptism...

Would see them as being akin to say Anglicans, who have sacraments mixed along with the bible and Gospel...

remember also that Martin Luther is the final say in how they view the truths of scriptures...

Well aware of the sacraments issues but they all come 2nd to UNIVERSAL ATONEMENT ie Christs death reconciles everyone to God. Now what I dont know is, do Lutherans believe Jesus' death is an actual atonement for the sins of all people -- then wouldn't the result be that all people are saved?

or... was Jesus' death really not an actual atonement, but only something that makes atonement possible? I believe this to be what most Non-Calvies believe but I'm not certain about Lutherans. Most NC's will tell you that the atonement becomes actual when the sinner repents & believes on Jesus (someone please correct me if I am wrong--Hopefully a Lutheran or an ex-Lutheran to clarify)

Lastly I hope you are in error with your last statement about his (ML) being the final say in interpreting scripture.... I hope the HS had allot to do with it. :love2:

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Interaction with the Holy Spirit is where I totally loose Luther. It appears he is trying to fix a wrong he perceives about the RCC & their "Scripture Lite" characteristics. So instead of concentrating on the bible he attempts a balance between the Word Of God & the Holy Spirit so he creates this convoluted outward & inward thing where outwardly God deals with us through the gospel & through the visible signs of infant baptism & the Lords Supper (Lutheran Sacraments). This, if I understand correctly, is God the Father.

Now inwardly God deals with us through the Holy Spirit & faith. But this is always in such a way & in this order that the outward means must precede the inward means, and the inward means comes after through the outward means. So, then, God has willed that He will not give anyone the inward gifts (of the Spirit & faith) except through the outward means {of the Word & the sacraments}

Information taken from the book: HISTORIC THEOLOGY by Gregg Allison--Pgs 441-442.

If any Lutherans understand this & can help me to understand this....PLEASE step up as I'm confused.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I don't know.... I was searching through the archives regarding this whole mess and stumbled upon a commentary by Sinclair Ferguson. He said that unless the atonement is both particular & effective then we have really destroyed the unity and harmony of the Trinity.

Look at the confusing stuff the Lutherans believe. It appears to be saying that the members of the trinity don't quite know what they are doing.

The Father has chosen the elect, but the son died for all & the spirit has managed to apply the atoning work of Christ to some. Huh???

Again if there is a Lutheran out there who could explain this & pull it together, please feel free to step up.

Thank you

 

[Yeshua1]

Interaction with the Holy Spirit is where I totally loose Luther. It appears he is trying to fix a wrong he perceives about the RCC & their "Scripture Lite" characteristics. So instead of concentrating on the bible he attempts a balance between the Word Of God & the Holy Spirit so he creates this convoluted outward & inward thing where outwardly God deals with us through the gospel & through the visible signs of infant baptism & the Lords Supper (Lutheran Sacraments). This, if I understand correctly, is God the Father.

Now inwardly God deals with us through the Holy Spirit & faith. But this is always in such a way & in this order that the outward means must precede the inward means, and the inward means comes after through the outward means. So, then, God has willed that He will not give anyone the inward gifts (of the Spirit & faith) except through the outward means {of the Word & the sacraments}

Information taken from the book: HISTORIC THEOLOGY by Gregg Allison--Pgs 441-442.

If any Lutherans understand this & can help me to understand this....PLEASE step up as I'm confused.

not a Lutheran, but would say that the biggest difference between them and catholics is that the catholics see the grace of God in and thru the Saraments inherintly, water baptism washes away original Sin regardless, while Lutherans say one musthave faith in order to get the grace!

 

[Yeshua1]

I don't know.... I was searching through the archives regarding this whole mess and stumbled upon a commentary by Sinclair Ferguson. He said that unless the atonement is both particular & effective then we have really destroyed the unity and harmony of the Trinity.

Look at the confusing stuff the Lutherans believe. It appears to be saying that the members of the trinity don't quite know what they are doing.

The Father has chosen the elect, but the son died for all & the spirit has managed to apply the atoning work of Christ to some. Huh???

Again if there is a Lutheran out there who could explain this & pull it together, please feel free to step up.

Thank you

Think bottom line is that they are Arminian in doctrine, holding to one can lose Christ and his works for them, and that they are sacramental in grace applying towards the saints!

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Think bottom line is that they are Arminian in doctrine, holding to one can lose Christ and his works for them, and that they are sacramental in grace applying towards the saints!

Im not going to be there if thats true.......unless of course they have a pig roast for Octoberfest! :laugh:

 

[Jerome]

http://www.wels.net/news-events/forward-in-christ/august-1999/doctrines-different-denominations

Calvinism is sometimes summarized under five points, abbreviated as TULIP.

T=total depravity. Man is entirely sinful by nature and is unable to save himself. This is correct.

U=unconditional grace. God gives us his grace without any merit or worthiness in us. Again this is correct.

L=limited atonement. Christ's death was not credited to all people, but only to those chosen for salvation. This is unscriptural.

I=irresistible grace. People cannot resist God's saving grace, which is offered only to the elect. This is incorrect because God's grace is sincerely offered to all. It is their fault if they reject it.

P=perseverance of the saints. It is impossible to fall from faith. This too is false.

The main error of Calvinism is that God has predestined some to salvation and some to damnation.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

http://www.wels.net/news-events/forward-in-christ/august-1999/doctrines-different-denominations

I view this entire commentary as opinion, not truth. This board has discussed these issues Ad Nauseum so I wont even consider any more further dialog about it.

The OP is about Lutheran Beliefs....if you can clarify the questions I have then please do ....otherwise I will ignore the criticisms of Doctrines of Grace theology as they dont address the issues.

Well my apologies.... I thought that was you Jerome....I did not see the attachment. Not only are they misguided in their understanding of DOG, they purposefully use outdated terminology. And Yeshua is right, their distinctive s are more Arminian than Baptist....after reading the SBC blurb I realized I have more in common with SBC than Lutherans. Thanks for the heads up!

 

[billwald]

The Devil is in the pronouns. See <http://www.evangelicalinclusivism.com/>

Christian Reformed Church Pastor Neal Punt's thesis is that Christ died for every person except those whom the Bible names and describes as reprobate such as Judas. Everyone else is "elect." He successfully defeated heresy charges but is generally ignored by the Reformed community.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

The Devil is in the pronouns. See <http://www.evangelicalinclusivism.com/>

Christian Reformed Church Pastor Neal Punt's thesis is that Christ died for every person except those whom the Bible names and describes as reprobate such as Judas. Everyone else is "elect." He successfully defeated heresy charges but is generally ignored by the Reformed community.

So what do you think of this guy & his theories Bill?