lyrics that aren't doctrinal

Here is one for you, not a song but a prayer. It isn't doctinally correct to ask God to be "with us" he is ALWAYS with us. our prayer should be "Lord may i feel your presence in my life" or that "so and so may feel your presence at this time of need"

And when people call the book of Revelation "Revelations" with an S. it was only one revelation given to John not many.

 

That reminds me, there is a song on the southern gospel billboards called 'John the Revelator'.

WRONG!!

John was not the Revelator. Jesus Christ was revealed to John. John did not do the revealing.

 

Regardless whether 'fort' means gas in southern states or not, fort in the old testament meant stronghold or defense.

I am quite sure the songwriter was speaking of a defense or stronghold.

The second verse of that song does not even say the gates of hell are prevailing against the church. Satan tries to advance against the church. Paul wrote in Ephesians 6, 'Having done all, stand...'

Satan is advancing this day and age more and more and many are falling. Whether people want to believe it or not. Look at Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Bakker, many more ministers of the gospel who have fallen because of believing satan's lies.

Before Jimmy Swaggart's fall, he had a great ministry which many tuned in to watch. Jim Bakker too. Oral Roberts, others.

Satan is advancing. Stand your ground. Hold the fort.

 

I'll take that one a step further. Several years ago I was asked to do a funeral message in a Catholic church, and that hymn was used. The Catholic hymnal said, "for such a one as I". Sort of softened the "sinner", didn't it? But I suspect the editors of the Baptist Hymnal felt that "worm" was too negative.

Let's not think of the words to the hymns as inerrant and unchangeable. The church I pastored used as its "signature song" the hymn, "In Christ there is no east or west", and we regularly altered the words of that verse that says, "Join hands, then, brothers of the faith" to "Join hands, then, people of the faith" .. and removed and replaced as necessary in a couple of other places to get rid of gender-specific language.

 

I agree that...

Ephesians 6:13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

But, shouldn't at least a few be Advancing the kingdom?

And, while I come from a background where "Hold the Fort" was Sung *a lot*...

It still sounds like it portrays 'us' as cowering behind embattled battlements instead of bravely standing our ground...

Mike Sr.

 

As a battle analogy, I quite prefer "Onward, Christian Soldiers" to "Hold the Fort." But that's just personal preference.

 

Paul did write 'Having done all, stand'. He did not say 'having done all, tuck tail and run' or 'having done all, continue marching.'

There is a time when the church must stand. The church has turned and given in to many of the devil's ways over the last half century. Many worshippers look and act more and more like the world all the time. People are allowing the devil's sodomite workers behind the pulpit as pastors, worship leaders, and youth directors.

Worldly values have infiltrated the church because people are not taking a stand for God and 'Holding the Fort.'

 

Offense vs. Defense

 

Accidental double post.

 

That's true, MP. I stand corrected.

 

Greetings musicforyou:

First of all, I just wanted to give you a quick shout: I am a BEARDENite who went on to graduate from the University of Tennessee.

How about this one?
There is a fountain filled with blood,
Drawn from Immanuel's veins.
And sinners plunged beneath that flood,
Lose all their guilty stains.


HUH?

Regards,
BiR (in Kansas City this week)

 

Re: Songs that are not completely doctrinally correct

First, I think we should approach with caution. Some people seem not to care whether a song is doctrinally correct if they like it (tune, beat, tempo, etc.). Others seem so critical that they wouldn’t like the words of anything they didn’t write/right. Perhaps somewhere in the middle of this is the place to be.

I can think of four options a person might have: sing the song without comment; sing the song but with a comment about the problem; sing the song with altered wording; or don’t sing the song. There may be other options, but I can’t think of any right now. Related but not exactly the same – if we like a tune but don’t like the words, if it has a consistent poetic meter one could substitute an entirely new set of words; e.g. "Amazing grace how sweet the sound" in place of "There is a fountain filled with blood" (they are both "common meter"). My personal opinion is against altering the wording of someone else’s hymn/poem. Either use it or find another hymn.

Here are some questions to ask that I think might be helpful, with some examples included.

What is the hymn writer trying to communicate?
Perhaps we may be overly critical of some point in a song when we don’t really understand what the songwriter is trying to say. "Lord, build me a cabin in the corner of Gloryland" – seems the writer is trying to express that he doesn’t deserve a mansion – "I feel I'm not worthy, to receive all of this" – and that a cabin up there is better than a mansion down here (Don't care for fine mansions on earth’s sinking sand). Not bad thoughts to express, IMO. I suppose the main problem is that it falls short of recognizing that Jesus has nevertheless promised us a mansion.

Is the overall message solid with a few questionable words, or is the overall theme of the hymn suspect?
"Jesus is coming soon"– does one object to the overall statement of the song, or just some small points within it? "O What a Savior"; "they searched thru heaven and found a Savior to save a poor lost soul like me" – the hymn writer used a literary device that doesn’t come off well in this song, IMO (though in Revelation 5, John seems to see something in a vision that uses a similar device). The writer is hopelessly straying in sin and a Savior is sought out to save him. Overall the hymn writer seems intent on glorifying the Savior, giving His death credit for saving even the vilest of sinners.

Does the rest of your church see a problem with these words? If not, could it just be you?
"There is a fountain filled with blood" -- Perhaps one might not like the particular poetic picture drawn by Cowper, but the point that the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin comes through clearly. Not only my church, but many churches over several hundred years seem to have approved of the text. That doesn’t make it right, but should give reason for me to consider it carefully.

Is it a factual error, a doctrinal error or perhaps only a minor interpretational thing?
I suppose all errors are ultimately doctrinal errors, but a song that presents Jesus as not born of a virgin would be a different type of error than one that puts the wise men at the manger rather than a house, as Matthew says. Further, this factual error about the house is different from the interpretational error where some people interpret certain Old Testament verses as prophecy of this event and believe there were three wise men and that they were kings.

Is it wrong because it doesn’t tell the whole story, or does it tell the wrong story?
"Jesus is coming soon"; "all of the dead shall rise" – all of the dead certainly are going to rise. Perhaps the writer thinks all indiscriminately will rise at Jesus’ 2nd coming, or perhaps he just didn’t explain it in detail. Some think the resurrection of all will be at the same time, while others believe it will be separated by 1000 years or so. Is the timing of the resurrection, premillennialism, amillennialism, etc. something that would be a test of fellowship in your church?

What would you do if a preacher or teacher taught what is being sung? If a Sunday School teacher, would he be corrected or perhaps replaced? If he were a visiting preacher, would you invite him back? If he is the pastor, would it be ignored? would he be reprimanded? run off? Another way to put this is to ask if we are harder on our songs than we would be on our teachers? The songs are easy victims – can’t talk back, don’t get their feelings hurt and we don’t have to challenge them face to face.

Is there another song that expresses the same truth without the objectionable feature?
"Just a little talk with Jesus"; "prayer wheel turning" -- Cleavant Derricks (1910-1977) was a black Baptist preacher/songwriter. The idea of a prayer wheel seems strange to me, but I find it unlikely that he had a Tibetan Buddhist prayer wheel in mind. More likely it was something like an attempt to describe a feeling that incited him to prayer. It is very unfortunate that those familiar with a Tibetan prayer wheel might think of that rather than what Derricks meant. Perhaps there is another song that similarly exhorts one to prayer, without such an objectionable phrase. This question should probably ultimately follow up all of the other questions. If we can express the same truth sans the objectionable features, shouldn’t we do it? But also we should extend grace towards those who don’t come to exactly the same conclusions as we do.

Finally, remember that the only inspired songs are found in the book of Psalms. If we cannot bear to sing any perceived error, however minor, perhaps we should adopt the same mentally as some of the Reformed brethren – sing the Psalms only. Then I suppose we will still have problems – metrical psalms or prose only? Whose translation? Etc.

So to your question, "If you discover a song such as this what actions should be taken to correct the doctrinal error?", I would apply some or all of the questions above and then follow one of three options – sing the song without comment; sing the song but with a comment about the problem; or not sing the song – according to how I answered the questions.

 

Zechariah 13:1 - "On that day there shall be a fountain opened for the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and uncleanness." - I think that was the inspiration.

 

Zechariah 13:1 - "On that day there shall be a fountain opened for the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem, to cleanse them from sin and uncleanness." - I think that was the inspiration. </font>[/QUOTE]I agree. I do not see a thing wrong with the song, 'There Is A Fountain.'

 

Oh, I wasn't correcting you Joshua! Just making the observations that the contrast of the two songs you mentioned are just that...offense vs. defense.

Carry on!