M.R. Vincent re: Election

[James_Newman]

Romans 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free* gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
*with purchase of equal or greater value

You always make God out to be like some shady Madison Avenue lawyer.

 

[Craigbythesea]

You always make God out to be like some shady Madison Avenue lawyer.

Does a "shady Madison Avenue lawyer" tell you to read the entire contract carefully and prayerfully before coming to the conclusion that you fully understand it?

And which one of us is so extremely confused about Baptist theology that he teaches that unrighteous Christians will spend 1,000 years in hell before going to be with Christ for the rest of eternity?

 

[James_Newman]

Where does God say that you must read the whole bible and understand it the CBTS way before you can be saved?

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Dr. Bob:
OldReg - while your graphic pix of craig "throwing up" on his keyboard made me smile, it was NOT acceptable form of debate here.

Craig is dead wrong. He doesn't agree with the doctrine of election. Worse of all, he doesn't agree with me!

But ask all to stick with the issue at hand and not get personal. I remember being called "the spawn of satan" by one poster who disagreed with me about something. That may be just a tad too far with the rhetoric.

I realized that reference to vomiting on one's keyboard was not acceptable, however, since craigbythesea kept referring to vomit in his posts I thought the response might accomplish something, what I don't know. Mr. craigbythesea also continues to demean those who believe in the Doctrine of Election. I do not believe that I have made any negative remarks about those who don't accept this doctrine. If I have I certainly want to apologize.

In my opinion the Doctrine of Election glorifies God. I have noted elsewhere that this doctrine and the other Doctrines of Grace take the BIG I out of salvation and therefore magnifies the grace of God.

 

[whatever]

Do they tell their kids and loved ones, gee I hope you are one of the elect but if not isn't God wonderful.

Actually, yes I do. My kids know they they, like everyone else, were born dead in sin. They know that if they are ever to believe it will be because God has granted them life. They also know that God holds them repsonsible to believe, even though they can't believe on their own. And they know that God is wonderful.

The Bible states that some people will be cast into the lake of fire. Why did God even create them? Did He not know what their destiny would be? If He did know, how can He say that He loves these whom He created knowing that they would suffer eternal damnation? (You probably wouldn't have done that - are you more loving than God?) If He did not know, how can He be God?

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by whatever:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Do they tell their kids and loved ones, gee I hope you are one of the elect but if not isn't God wonderful.

Actually, yes I do. My kids know they they, like everyone else, were born dead in sin. They know that if they are ever to believe it will be because God has granted them life. They also know that God holds them repsonsible to believe, even though they can't believe on their own. And they know that God is wonderful.

The Bible states that some people will be cast into the lake of fire. Why did God even create them? Did He not know what their destiny would be? If He did know, how can He say that He loves these whom He created knowing that they would suffer eternal damnation? (You probably wouldn't have done that - are you more loving than God?) If He did not know, how can He be God? </font>[/QUOTE]Great 1st post whatever!

 

[Craigbythesea]

In my opinion the Doctrine of Election glorifies God. I have noted elsewhere that this doctrine and the other Doctrines of Grace take the BIG I out of salvation and therefore magnifies the grace of God.

No one in this thread has denied the Biblical doctrine of election. Some, however, including me, are denying the very wrong and unscriptural interpretation of this doctrine put forth by James Boyce. And most certainly God is NOT magnified by any doctrine that minimizes the profound love for Him by those hear and believe the Gospel and choose, of their own free will, to consider themselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. And most certainly if the ONLY reason for anyone loving God is that God made them as creatures who love Him, God is NOT truly loved at all by anyone, but very greatly despised by those who were NOT made by God as creatures who love Him. However, God IS most certainly magnified by those who choose, of their own free will, to love Him even though they have a million reasons not to as did many early Christians and as do some Christians today.

 

[whatever]

And most certainly if the ONLY reason for anyone loving God is that God made them as creatures who love Him, God is NOT truly loved at all by anyone

That does not follow.

However, God IS most certainly magnified by those who choose, of their own free will, to love Him even though they have a million reasons not to as did many early Christians and as do some Christians today.

Could you list some of those reasons to not love God?

 

[Craigbythesea]

That does not follow.

Please show is in the scriptures how it does not follow.

Could you list some of those reasons to not love God?

• The heinous murder of one’s little girl by a pedophile on parole
• Metastasizing bone cancer
• $4.3 million dollars debt due to medical bills
• An only son who became a deaf and blind quadriplegic in Iraq
• A wife with an inoperable, terminal brain tumor causing her excruciating pain

 

[Craigbythesea]

whatever,

I almost forgot:

Welcome to the Baptist Board! I pray that we will be a blessing to you, and you to us.

CBTS

 

[Dr. Bob]

Originally posted by whatever:
The Bible states that some people will be cast into the lake of fire. Why did God even create them? Did He not know what their destiny would be? If He did know, how can He say that He loves these whom He created knowing that they would suffer eternal damnation?

Lots of Scripture here. Sure you've seen them all. We cannot know the mind of God, but remember when questioning:

Who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use, and another for common use?

What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called.

His wrath on vessels prepared to be ultimately destroyed is to show in great contrast His mercy to His elected ones.

We will enjoy the glory of heaven and His saving grace to our undeserving souls even more knowing that we deserved eternal hell.

Dr. Bob
Chosen to be saved FROM hell - by His mercy
Chosen to be destined TO heaven - by His grace

 

[Craigbythesea]

Lots of Scripture here. Sure you've seen them all. We cannot know the mind of God, but remember when questioning:

Who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it?

Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use, and another for common use?

What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so in order that He might make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, even us, whom He also called.

Dr. Bob,

Please post the "Lots of Scripture here" so that we can discuss it. Certainly these few that you have posted say absolutely nothing about ANYONE being irrevocably created for ANY purpose whatsoever. Certainly we are not to question God’s design, but when God commands a man to repent, there can be no doubt that God has given that man the ability to repent, and God’s command to repent is given to EVERY man. Therefore, EVERY man, regardless of the purpose for which God originally made him, has the ability in himself, given to Him by God, to repent.

Romans 5:12. Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned--
13. for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
14. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.
15. But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many.
16. The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification.
17. For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.
18. So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. (NASB, 1995)

The doctrine of the absolute, irrevocable election of any individual man, woman, or child is not found ANYWHERE in the Bible. However, this doctrine is expressly refuted in Rom. 5:18 and hundreds of other scriptures, many of which have already been posted in this thread.

 

[Timtoolman]

Originally posted by whatever:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Do they tell their kids and loved ones, gee I hope you are one of the elect but if not isn't God wonderful.

Actually, yes I do. My kids know they they, like everyone else, were born dead in sin. They know that if they are ever to believe it will be because God has granted them life. They also know that God holds them repsonsible to believe, even though they can't believe on their own. And they know that God is wonderful.

The Bible states that some people will be cast into the lake of fire. Why did God even create them? Did He not know what their destiny would be? If He did know, how can He say that He loves these whom He created knowing that they would suffer eternal damnation? (You probably wouldn't have done that - are you more loving than God?) If He did not know, how can He be God? </font>[/QUOTE]Well the big difference being rather I gave them a chance to repent. In Calvinism He did not, but I believe according to the scriptures that God has given all mankind that chance.
You are the first to say that they tell their kids that. I respect that because that is what you believe. Still does it not grieve you or hurt you to think your loved ones may be bound for an eternal hell and created for that soul purpose? Just wondering.
One other thing you said (you tell your children) that God holds them accountable to believe yet God has to do it for them. How do you explain that to them? Do they not ask how can I be held accountable for something I have no control over?

Tim

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:

Please show is in the scriptures how it does not follow.

Here's what you said originally: "And most certainly if the ONLY reason for anyone loving God is that God made them as creatures who love Him, God is NOT truly loved at all by anyone..."

You are saying that if God made people who love Him then they don't truly love Him. Do you see the contradiction?

• The heinous murder of one’s little girl by a pedophile on parole
• Metastasizing bone cancer
• $4.3 million dollars debt due to medical bills
• An only son who became a deaf and blind quadriplegic in Iraq
• A wife with an inoperable, terminal brain tumor causing her excruciating pain

Each of those things is awful, and I'm sure you and I could list others, and I am sure that we both know people who have experienced things like that. Maybe you have even been through something like that - my mother experienced something very similar to the last item. But what I don't understand is why you say that it is only those who choose on their own to love God in spite of things like this who truly love God and magnify Him. Could you explain what you mean, and why?

 

[whatever]

Hello Tim,

You said

Well the big difference being rather I gave them a chance to repent. In Calvinism He did not...

He commands all men everywhere to repent. That does not mean that all men are capable of repenting. You put your finger on the issue - can God hold us accountable for not doing what we are incapable of doing? I say that the Bible says that He can and does. I suppose that you say He does not. If so, what evidence would you offer?

 

[Craigbythesea]

You are saying that if God made people who love Him then they don't truly love Him. Do you see the contradiction?

There is no contradiction here. In Matthew 22:37-39 we read,

37. Ho de efe auto, "Agapeseis Kurion ton Theon sou en hole te kardia sou kai en hole te psuche sou kai en hole te dianoia sou."
38. Haute estin he megale kai prote entole.
39. Deutera de homoia aute, "Agapeseis ton plesion sou hos seauton."

Agape is a pure, volitional love. It is the love with which God loves us (John 3:16*), and it is the love with which we are commanded to love God. If men are incapable of volitional love they are incapable of keeping the megale kai prote commandment. The important point here is that unless man has a free will to volitionally love God, man is incapable of keeping even the megale kai prote commandment, and the atonement of Christ on the cross was an abysmal failure. Therefore having the choice to love or not love God is absolutely necessary and central to the Christian faith.

*John 3:16. Houtos gar egapesen ho Theos ton kosmon, hoste ton Huion ton monogene edoken, hina pas ho pisteuon eis auton me apoletai all eche zoen aionion.

 

[whatever]

From whom did you get your volition?

You are obviously well educated, so it surprises me that you would assert that if God makes someone to love Him that they are not really loving Him. If God makes someone love Him, and if love must be volitional, then He gives the volition. What do we have, including the will to love, that we have not been given?

 

[Craigbythesea]

then He gives the volition.

Volition, by its very nature, requires a free will:

Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary

One entry found for volition.

Main Entry: vo•li•tion
Pronunciation: vO-'li-sh&n, v&-
Function: noun
Etymology: French, from Medieval Latin volition-, volitio, from Latin vol- (stem of velle to will, wish) + -ition-, -itio (as in Latin position-, positio position) -- more at WILL
1 : an act of making a choice or decision; also : a choice or decision made
2 : the power of choosing or determining : WILL
- vo•li•tion•al /-'lish-n&l, -'li-sh&-n&l/ adjective

If God gave the volition, as of course He did, He thereby gave the freewill!

 

[whatever]

Of course He did. God made me love Him. Part of that was to give me a new heart that would desire Him. Because He did so I freely want to believe, and I freely choose to love Him. But you say I don't truly love Him.

 

[Craigbythesea]

But you say I don't truly love Him.

No, I do not. I know almost nothing about you.