M.R. Vincent re: Election

[whatever]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> So, do you believe that Calvinists don't pray, or that God only hears Pelagian prayers, or what?

Pelagius was a heretic who denied the doctrine of original sin . Calvin was a Harry Tick who most unfortunately did not have the resources to study the Bible that I and other true believers do have and invented five fictional doctrines to fill the void in his understanding . I suppose that if spent as much time writing Harry Ticked books as Calvin did, I wouldn’t have time to pray either

.

</font>[/QUOTE]So, do you really know why there are five points of Calvinism?

 

[Craigbythesea]

So, do you really know why there are five points of Calvinism?

Yes. The state Church of Holland, following the Belgic Confession of Faith and the Heidelberg Catechism rather than the Holy Bible, was engulfed in very serious doctrinal error and the followers of James Arminius, a Dutch seminary professor who, unlike the state Church, believed the Bible, submitted to the State of Holland a Remonstrance that included a doctrinal statement that refuted the five principle errors that the Church of Holland was teaching.

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> So, do you really know why there are five points of Calvinism?

Yes. The state Church of Holland, following the Belgic Confession of Faith and the Heidelberg Catechism rather than the Holy Bible, was engulfed in very serious doctrinal error and the followers of James Arminius, a Dutch seminary professor who, unlike the state Church, believed the Bible, submitted to the State of Holland a Remonstrance that included a doctrinal statement that refuted the five principle errors that the Church of Holland was teaching.

</font>[/QUOTE]Thanks for the chuckle. It's been a stressful day, and I needed that.

 

[Craigbythesea]

Jesus loves you

, whatever your views about John Calvin .

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
Jesus loves you

, whatever your views about John Calvin .

Hey! We agree about something!

 

[reformedbeliever]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
reformedbeliever,

Welcome to the Baptist Board!

Personally, I do not believe that the Bible was so poorly written that no one was able to understand it until the 16th century . I also believe that we need to realistically view the Reformation and the men behind it and the fact that the Church was just beginning to come out of the dark ages and none of the reformers had access to the Bible study tools that even the teenagers in our churches take for granted today when studying the Bible. Most certainly if Calvin and the other reformers had access to 21st century technology to study the Bible and the 400+ years of Biblical scholarship that was accomplished after they died, they would have believed something radically different than they did, and we would not be debating their misunderstanding of the doctrine of election.

Thank you for the warm welcome brother. I don't believe anyone can understand the Bible unless their spiritual eyes are opened first by the Holy Spirit..... regardless of thier age. Can you agree with that? Do you believe that anyone who wishes can understand the things of God and seek God without that miracle of the Holy Spirit? If you agree with the Bible, and you believe that man is spiritually dead and unable to seek God or understand the Word, why doesn't God perform this miracle on every person? Could it just be that the one who seeks God is the elect? If you do not believe God has to change a person's nature to seek God how can you expect God to answer your prayers for the lost? Do you expect God to change their nature to be able to respond to the offer of salvation? Wouldn't that violate their free will? I've already asked this question...... but I'll ask again Grace and peace.

 

[Craigbythesea]

I don’t believe in hocus-pocus—I believe in the Bible; and as I as I have already posted, the doctrine of election as taught by James Boyce is in conflict with literally hundreds of verses in the Bible. ANY doctrine that is in conflict with literally hundreds of verses in the Bible cannot possibly by true no matter how much one may rationalize the doctrine and attempt to squeeze it into Christian Orthodoxy.

 

[Watchman]

Originally posted by whatever:
Hi Watchman!

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />I read that he came to the conclusion that whosoever will come ARE the elect. This explaination I feel is close to what the Scriptures teach.

We believe that God chose certain ones, before the foundation of the earth, and those are the ones who will come to faith.</font>[/QUOTE]Hi whatever!
Glad to have you on the board. I am also glad to answer you here. I cropped your post at this point because that is where to whole problem lies.
I believe that the elect are:
"elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father." (1Peter 1:2a)
NOT
"elect according to the random choice of God the Father"
It only follows that If God chose certain ones, it only follows that He rejected, for reasons (or even for no reason) known only to Him certain ones. Is there any point in quoting all of the scriptures again that speaks of both man's choice, as well as those that speak of man stubbornly refusing God's call?
Is there any point in mentioning passages that God would have everyone to be saved? That He has no pleasure in the wicked that they perish? The passages that says He would, but ye WOULD not? Those passages where they all together began to make excuse?
There are REASONS that I, and others of the opposing view reject Calvinism, objections based on Scripture, not whim.

 

[reformedbeliever]

If you do not believe God has to change a person's nature to seek God how can you expect God to answer your prayers for the lost? Do you expect God to change their nature to be able to respond to the offer of salvation? Wouldn't that violate their free will? I've already asked this question...... but I'll ask again Grace and peace. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Third time

 

[OldRegular]

Originally posted by Craigbythesea:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> I guess this puts MacArthur in the same boat as all those "fruitcake" Baptist Saints like Spurgeon, Boyce, Dagg, Broadus, Manly, and countless others.

"Fruitcake" would not be my choice of words for these men.

</font>[/QUOTE]What would your choice of words be?

 

[whatever]

I believe that the elect are:
"elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father." (1Peter 1:2a)
NOT
"elect according to the random choice of God the Father"

I agree.

It only follows that If God chose certain ones, it only follows that He rejected, for reasons (or even for no reason) known only to Him certain ones.

I agree.

Is there any point in quoting all of the scriptures again that speaks of both man's choice, as well as those that speak of man stubbornly refusing God's call?
Is there any point in mentioning passages that God would have everyone to be saved? That He has no pleasure in the wicked that they perish? The passages that says He would, but ye WOULD not? Those passages where they all together began to make excuse?

If you want to, sure. I've seen them though.

There are REASONS that I, and others of the opposing view reject Calvinism, objections based on Scripture, not whim.

I doubt anyone on this board has reached his viewpoint on a whim. What are some of your reasons?

 

[Watchman]

There are REASONS that I, and others of the opposing view reject Calvinism, objections based on Scripture, not whim.

I doubt anyone on this board has reached his viewpoint on a whim. What are some of your reasons? [/QB][/QUOTE]

Hello Whatever
It would seem from your post that we may not be that far apart after all.
You ask a very good question, but my response would require time, and I am pressed for time right now. I hope to get back to you before this thread runs out, if not, I hope to send you a p.m.
For now, my biggest objection is equating the death our Lord and Savior suffered with that dreadful word: Limited (Atonement)(As in the L in T.U.L.I.P.)
Effective and efficient for those who will be saved? Yes. Limited to some elect? No.

 

[whatever]

Hi Watchman,

No problem. I understand being pressed for time. If you find time that's cool, and if not that's cool too. I was just curious.

I also don't like the phrase "limited atonement" - I think "definite redemption" is a much better description. Maybe we can talk about it sometime.

 

[reformedbeliever]

I think particular redemption is a better description than limited attonement. Craig... again how do you expect God to bring the lost person to faith if you don't believe that God can violate our "free will"? Do you pray for the lost in vain?

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

I believe that we do pray for some of the lost in vain. Many of the things we pray for are not given to us because of God's much better understanding of what is good for us.

My Bible says:

hn 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Jhn 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Jhn 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Jhn 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Jhn 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Jhn 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

These verses say that every man has a choice, to accept Christ and lie or to reject Him and die.

 

[Craigbythesea]

I think particular redemption is a better description than limited attonement. Craig... again how do you expect God to bring the lost person to faith if you don't believe that God can violate our "free will"? Do you pray for the lost in vain?

If you were violated, it certainly wasn't God who did it!

And of course God did not violate me either. I was living in sin and didn't know it and God placed obedient, Holy Ghost filled Christians living holy lives in my path and I saw for a fact that I was a sinner living in sin. When I inquired about the solution to the problem, these obedient to God, Holy Ghost filled Christians living holy lives explained to me the plan of salvation. However, I was so dead in sin that until the church held a spontaneous, Holy Ghost prayer meeting on a Sunday night that lasted till midnight I didn’t believe that Jesus was any more real than Santa Claus or the Easter Bunny. But God, through his mercy and grace, enabled me to ask for salvation in spite of my condition. And, as I have already posted elsewhere, for three weeks I remained an obstinate unbeliever publicly denying both Christ and His Gospel until the Holy Ghost came over me with His Divine, supernatural power and grace and radically transformed me into a child of God as I was walking down the street.

He Touched Me

Words and music by William J. Gaither
© 1963

Shackled by a heavy burden,
'Neath a load of guilt and shame.
Then the Hand of Jesus touched me,
And now I am no longer the same.

Refrain
He touched me,
Oh, He touched me,
And oh the joy that floods my soul.
Something happened and now I know,
He touched me and made me whole.

Since I met the Blessed Saviour,
Since He cleansed and made me whole,
I will never cease to Praise Him!
I'll shout it while eternity rolls.

Refrain
He touched me,
Oh, He touched me,
And oh the joy that floods my soul.
Something happened and now I know,
He touched me and made me whole.
(repeat the refrain 2 times)

He touched me and made me whole.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Then why doesn't the Holy Ghost come over everyone? Are all going to be saved? The Word of God says not. So if the Holy Ghost doesn't come over everyone to the point of salvation it looks like it must be election huh? Or is it just that He loved you more?

 

[Craigbythesea]

Or is it just that He loved you more?

No, very much prayer went up to God for me to be saved and filled with the Holy Spirit, and God answered their prayer.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Yeah Craig. Thank God for parents and wives and faithful servants of God. And thank Him that He would be pleased to use us as His instruments of His will. What a privilege and responsibility we have. Grace and peace brother