MacArthur On The Dangers of Non-Lordship Doctrine

[skypair]

Sanctification is a lifelong process so no I nor any other saved individual is not completely sanctified at this moment forever. Sanctification as Scripture lays it out for us is a process not a one-time event as eternal salvation is seen.

But sanctification AS a lifetime event is as certain as eternal life is eternal life. In other words, you may think it isn't happening to you --- or, more likely, to someone else who is not "elite" enough (good enough, whatever it takes enough) --- but God promises (Phil 1:6) that it IS!

No I don't fully understand your terms and I think they lend themselves to confusing the matter at hand.

Not to mention that yours do the same! :laugh:

Rule over the earth also eminates from the heavens where Satan and his co-horts currently rule. This spiritual portion of the kingdom was the offer that was being made to Israel during the time of Christ. He came preaching the gospel of the kingdom. Matthew refers to it as the kingdom of the heavens (that's the actual correct translation of the phrase Matthew uses and which can be found in John 3 at least according to the Aleph text). This is the spiritual portion of the kingdom.

Are you speaking of Matthew's "kingdom of heaven" pararbles here? Cause those do NOT describe any "kingdom of the heavenlies." They regard spiritual truth about earthly events. The parable of the 10 virgins, for instance, describe the rapture of the wise church and the leaving behind ON EARTH of the foolish.

[/quote]This offer was rejected by Israel. However Abraham was promised that spiritual blessings would flow through his seed.[/quote] Yes, the olive tree religious privileges and the vine relational privileges. Both are spiritual -- the first one was cut off for a period of time until "the fulness of the Gentiles come in."

That's where the Gentiles come into the picture. Gentiles are saved (faith in The Substitute and made alive spiritually) so that they can now entertain this spiritual offer of the kingdom that Israel rejected.

Yes, we were grafted into the olive tree tho we were "wild branches."

We can accept this offer and rule with Christ in His coming kingdom from the heavens or we can reject the offer of ruling and reigning with Him and face the consequences of such actions. But our eternal destiny is secure.

Christ is going to be ruling from Israel, friend -- from Jerusalem, from the Millennial temple! Where are you getting that He rules from heaven during His kingdom??

skypair

 

[J. Jump]

But sanctification AS a lifetime event is as certain as eternal life is eternal life.

Sorry there is just WAY too much Scripture that says otherwise. Not to mention that we are instructed to walk in the Spirit and not walk by the flesh. We are given the end results of each of those actions. So if we can do nothing but walk in the Spirit and be sanctified then why are we instructed to do something that we are going to do? Why are we given the results of something that is an impossibiliyt for us? It says those that sow to the flesh will reap corruption. Why would be told that if that is not a possibility for us? That doesn't make a lick of sense.

Are you speaking of Matthew's "kingdom of heaven" pararbles here? Cause those do NOT describe any "kingdom of the heavenlies."

Yes Matthew does talk about the kingdom of the heavens (actual translation of the text) in the parables. The most detailed would be in Matthew 13. But the phrase is used elsewhere in Matthew.

They regard spiritual truth about earthly events.

They are earthly stories about Spiritual Truth that is correct. And yes it has to do with some earthly events, because the people that were offered positions were on the earth. And the people that are still being offered the kingdom are on earth, but make no mistake this is not talking about a physical earthly kingdom.

The parable of the 10 virgins, for instance, describe the rapture of the wise church and the leaving behind ON EARTH of the foolish.

You said you don't believe in a split rapture, but this is describing a split rapture. And know that's not what that parable is speaking of .

Christ is going to be ruling from Israel, friend -- from Jerusalem, from the Millennial temple! Where are you getting that He rules from heaven during His kingdom??

Yes He will rule from the physical earth, but He will also rule from the heavens (not heaven). Again there are two aspects to rulership over the earth. There is a physical rulership and there is a spiritual rulership. Christ will be King and Lord over both areas.

I have some study material that I could direct you to if you would like to study the matter out.

 

[J. Jump]

I can see you are not "working with a full deck" so far as scripture is concerned so if you would like, we can go over your scriptures for your beliefs and see what we find, OK?

WOW . . . just saw this statement. And this will end any discussion with you. I don't see where insults are necessary. So anything short of an apology we are done. I don't deal with rudeness and false accusations.

 

[EdSutton]

There's the error Ed Sutton --- the "gospel of the kingdom" is the OT gospel of salvation. The OT saints WILL participate in the MK, the church won't. Church will be in what JJ calls "Millennial Exclusion" apparently -- and that is true because we were never promised the land of Canaan for an everlasting inheritance nor was the "Davdic covenant" whereby Israel will rule earth offered to the church.

As you can see, all this is a huge misapplication of scripture. :BangHead:

skypair

EdSutton did not say this. At best (or worst), he was making a point about something someone else was saying.

Ed

 

[skypair]

WOW . . . just saw this statement. And this will end any discussion with you. I don't see where insults are necessary. So anything short of an apology we are done. I don't deal with rudeness and false accusations.

I was saying that you apparently don't have all scripture in mind as you make these statements of yours. There is much that you have missed, JJ. But I'll leave that up to you.

skypair

 

[Hope of Glory]

I was saying that you apparently don't have all scripture in mind as you make these statements of yours. There is much that you have missed, JJ. But I'll leave that up to you.

skypair

This is an interesting statement coming from someone who simply ignores the entire Kingdom of the Heavens message in the parables of Matthew.

 

[skypair]

This is an interesting statement coming from someone who simply ignores the entire Kingdom of the Heavens message in the parables of Matthew.

Now why would you say that??? The truth is I have studied them in depth and have a very good grasp on them. I have even heard them called "kingdom of the heavenlies" parables which I don't think is a good description of them so I avoid it. They simply don't mean what you think they do.

But let's just take the judgments in Mt 13:39-52 and see if anyone goes to the heavenlies after Jesus returns. The "tares"/living apostate Israel at Christ's return are taken out and cast into the furnace of hell. Nope, they don't go to the heavenlies.

The "hidden treasure"/dead OT Israel is dug up out of their graves and live into the MK. Nope, nobody going to the heavenlies there.

The "pearl"/martyred Gentiles of the trib arise to the MK.

The "fish"/Living Gentiles at Christ's return are put in vessels on the shore/MK (remember Jesus frying "fish" for his disciples in John 21?) and the bad are thrown back and, we are told, go to hell at the "end of the world."

So no, hope, I don't see anyone in the heavenlies from this group. But I also don't get it from any of the other parables of the "kingdom of the heavenlies." Perhaps you can help me out.

But perhaps you are one of those who believes that the church stays in the clouds after the rapture, eh? I don't even know where you are talking about. What would be such a "rule" anyway?? And where do the unworthy believers go? What scripture is that?

skypair

 

[Hope of Glory]

Well, I think that you are confusing hell with the lake of fire, and the tares are burned, but all saved people also go through the fire.

Let me ask you a question before I respond in more depth: What must I do to be saved?

 

[ituttut]

ituttut: so that places you in the position of saying I am not today "sanctified" forever from this moment on.

J.J: Sanctification is the continual washing and clensing of the Word by the Spirit based on the Blood of Christ that currently sits on the Mercy Seat as He acts as our Mediator (High Priest).

Sanctification is a lifelong process so no I nor any other saved individual is not completely sanctified at this moment forever. Sanctification as Scripture lays it out for us is a process not a one-time event as eternal salvation is seen.

Do we glory, and if so lets do it in Him.

Are we to meet Him at the Mercy Seat? The Mercy Seat has been replaced. It is now the Throne of Grace, to which we can go, not just one time a year, but in our "time of need", Hebrews 4:16.

We need to stop confusing the tenses of His Word. Should we try to prove, or be righteous in ourselves when it is Jesus Christ that made us righteous? Do we make our self "Holy", or was it Christ that made our sanctification? I Corinthians 1:30-31, "But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: 31. That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord."

To this I say we all three are justified in one way or the other, sanctified in one way or the other way, and all will be "glorified".

Yes we are all justified in an eternal sense. Justification is also seen as a process as well which is outside of eternal salvation. I guess if you want to call part of the sanctification process a setting apart then yes we have been sanctified because we have been set apart from the world, but only for eternal purposes. We must continually separate ourselves from the world each and every day in a practical sense.

I differ on justification, for we are justified in Him, and this is our eternal life, guaranteed, in a moment in the twinkling of an eye. From what you write we may not be too far apart as to sanctification as long as we keep apart what God has done, and what He wants us to become through the Holy Spirit's power.

And yes eventually we all will be glorified.

In agreement.

You may not fully understand why I many times mention the "Kingdom Church", and the "Body Church". You're position (if I correctly understand) places you into the "Kingdom Church".

No I don't fully understand your terms and I think they lend themselves to confusing the matter at hand.

The confusion is in not seeing the two foundations that are laid on the foundation of Jesus Christ. We cannot build on both foundations, that given to those while Jesus was on earth, and the other given to one from heaven.

As far as the kingdom of the earth is concerned there are two realms. There is a physical realm and there is a spiritual realm. Israel has been promised the earthly portion of the kingdom. That is something that can not be taken away from them and they will one day rule over the nations at the head of the nations from the land that God promised to them on a physical earth.

This is the "Kingdom promised", and this was the "Kingdom at hand", and it was the next event to occur according to Jesus , and what His Apostles preached. Can we not look at the "great commission" as given in Matthew, Mark, and Luke, and the gospel preached by Peter at Pentecost to the Jew of repent and be baptized for the remission of sins for entrance into the "Kingdom Church"?

We can see the restoration of the Kingdom to Israel in Acts 1:6, and 3:19-21. This is the "Kingdom Church". This is the gospel we find Peter and the Jewish Jerusalem church preaching. The Jew stumbled, and Paul went first to the Jew, and then to the Gentile with the Jew included. We find after Damascus Road as Christ revealed to Paul (at intervals) what God had hidden. The gospel of Paul is the informing, and forming of the "Body Church". It was not known to any man until Christ revealed it to Paul, just as He did the rapture.

Rule over the earth also eminates from the heavens where Satan and his co-horts currently rule. This spiritual portion of the kingdom was the offer that was being made to Israel during the time of Christ. He came preaching the gospel of the kingdom. Matthew refers to it as the kingdom of the heavens (that's the actual correct translation of the phrase Matthew uses and which can be found in John 3 at least according to the Aleph text). This is the spiritual portion of the kingdom.

How did you come to this conclusion? Did we know of the Body of Christ, the "Body Church" before God told us?

What is it that John the Baptist, Jesus, and the twelve had been preaching? It was "repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand". What was to come next, namely what "Kingdom"? The "Kingdom Church". Wasn't the "Kingdom" our Lord spoke of the "rule of the heavens on earth with Christ as King"? He told His Apostles to preach that "Kingdom", Matthew 10:7. He told His Apostles to practice it, Matthew 10:8-10, and then He told them to pray for it in Matthew 6:10 - "Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven." This is the "Kingdom Church" prayer.

Is it God that is confused, or man?

This offer was rejected by Israel. However Abraham was promised that spiritual blessings would flow through his seed. So in order for that promise to be kept a new entity must be brought into existence, because the offer was taken away from Israel.

That's where the Gentiles come into the picture. Gentiles are saved (faith in The Substitute and made alive spiritually) so that they can now entertain this spiritual offer of the kingdom that Israel rejected.

Sounds good as you inject what you find in the Epistle's of Paul.

But without Paul's writings you would not know this. You say of course we would for we have the Gospel of John. Christ while on earth spoke many truths, but we know the Apostles did not understand what He was saying. Not until Christ revealed to Paul what God had hidden in His mysteries, could the Holy Spirit inspire John to write his Gospel. John wrote all of his book some 30 or so years after the death of Paul.

God allowed Peter to be the first Apostle to preach a recorded message to a Gentile of the way we are justified, then allowed John to be the last to "tarry", to preach the gospel including the "uncircumcised" also, the truths that John had learned from Paul. Peter tells all they had better listen and understand the gospel of Paul - II Peter 3:15-16.

We can accept this offer and rule with Christ in His coming kingdom from the heavens or we can reject the offer of ruling and reigning with Him and face the consequences of such actions. But our eternal destiny is secure.

Those in the Body Church will not go through the tribulation period, but the Kingdom Church will and they will pray the "tribulation" prayer Jesus told His Apostles to pray, for the tribulation precedes the "Kingdom that was at Hand", and succeeds our "rapture".

Happy to help where I can.

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

JJump who is it that you are reading with regards to your theology?

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

http://lampbroadcast.org/index.html

http://www.comeandsee.org/SAVING/Nbeyond4.html

http://www.inthebeginning.org/kingdom/wilson/wilson8.pdf


Jump are these theologies you agree with?

 

[skypair]

Well, I think that you are confusing hell with the lake of fire, and the tares are burned, but all saved people also go through the fire.

Let me ask you a question before I respond in more depth: What must I do to be saved?

Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, repent, receive, and stand, 1Cor 15:1-3.

skypair

 

[J. Jump]

Jump are these theologies you agree with?

Yes I believe in the gospel of the kingdom as do the three that you have provided links.

 

[JDale]

http://lampbroadcast.org/index.html

http://www.comeandsee.org/SAVING/Nbeyond4.html

http://www.inthebeginning.org/kingdom/wilson/wilson8.pdf


Jump are these theologies you agree with?

It always breeds suspicion in my mind when I go to a ministry website and they offer multitudes of written material, but you can find nothing about their basic doctrinal statement or confession of faith.

To me, that SCREAMS "cult" -- at the very least to red flags go up and the klaxons sound for "battle stations."

So-- WHO are these people, and WHAT exactly do they believe?

JDale

 

[J. Jump]

It always breeds suspicion in my mind when I go to a ministry website and they offer multitudes of written material, but you can find nothing about their basic doctrinal statement or confession of faith.

Sounds purely like a personal bias to me. Why not read the information and find out what they believe? Now as for me personally I do have a doctrinal statement, but that doesn't mean everyone has to. And that certainly doesn't mean that I will avoid a ministry or website just because they don't have one.

More often than not one's "doctrinal" statement or "confession of faith" is so elementary and watered down that it doesn't help anyway. So are those folks and ministries screaming "cult" as well?

I love how so many people throw out these emotionally charged words such as "cult" like you have to try and scare people away from even going to these sites in the first place to make up their own mind.

Unfortunately we have way to many folks these days that will believe what someone tells them without finding out for themselves. We can see evidence of this running roughshot over Christendom.

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

[From JJump

I love how so many people throw out these emotionally charged words such as "cult" like you have to try and scare people away from even going to these sites in the first place to make up their own mind.

Unfortunately we have way to many folks these days that will believe what someone tells them without finding out for themselves. We can see evidence of this running roughshot over Christendom.

OH no not at all. I would suggest any grounded Christian involved in discussion on this thread to view it so they actually know where you are coming from with out having to guess at bits and pieces you give in a thread. Seeing the big picture would be very helpful.

And just as a teaser it appears (and correct me if I am wrong) that you believe in two or three salvations.

 

[J. Jump]

I would suggest any grounded Christian invoveld in discussion on this thread to view it so they actually know where you are coming from with out having to guess at bits and pieces you give in a thread.

Well you are certainly in the minority Most people encourage folks not to even look at the material, which I think is a terrible diservice. I have experienced this live and in color as well as on a few message boards.

By the way II Timothy I would be more than happy to begin a one-on-one discussion with you regarding these matters should you be interested. As you said only bits and pieces can really be given in such a setting as this. You are more than welcome to PM me or email me.

And just as a teaser it appears (and correct me if I am wrong) that you believe in two or three salvations.

Well I don't really have a problem with that wording. And yes since we are a tri-part being there is a salvation for our body, soul and spirit. Not all three happen at the same time.

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

Well you are certainly in the minority Most people encourage folks not to even look at the material, which I think is a terrible diservice. I have experienced this live and in color as well as on a few message boards.

By the way II Timothy I would be more than happy to begin a one-on-one discussion with you regarding these matters should you be interested. As you said only bits and pieces can really be given in such a setting as this. You are more than welcome to PM me or email me.


Well I don't really have a problem with that wording. And yes since we are a tri-part being there is a salvation for our body, soul and spirit. Not all three happen at the same time.

Do not get me wrong. I believe your view is in grave error. But I posted the links so others can come to that conclusion themselves. I am old time gospel preacher and I am in prayer for you.

 

[J. Jump]

I believe your view is in grave error.

Well then I would be more than interested in being set straight as I am only searching for the Truth. So by all means feel free to email me or PM and we can start our discussion.

 

[2 Timothy2:1-4]

Well then I would be more than interested in being set straight as I am only searching for the Truth. So by all means feel free to email me or PM and we can start our discussion.

So you want to be set straight and are searching for the truth. I am convinced otherwise.