Not sure what gave you that impression, but Truth is the ONLY thing that I am concerned about. I have had to eat crow before. And I will have to eat crow in the future at some point, and as painful as that can be at times I am not above crow eating. But I'm not one of these mindless followers that is going to believe anything you say just because you say it. If you want to have a discussion on Scripture and ask questions of me and are willing to field questions from me then by all means let's get going.
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MacArthur On The Dangers of Non-Lordship Doctrine
- Thread starter Martin
- Start date
Hope of Glory
New Member
2 Timothy2:1-4 said:
Codespeak for: "You disagree with me, so you're not interested in the truth!"
Scriptures are what we should be looking at, not doctrinal statements, etc. A doctrinal statement is good to see if you will fit in at a particular assembly or not.
2 Timothy2:1-4
New Member
Hope of Glory said:
Don't characterize what I say. You're as wrong as the day is long.
I admire your honesty but I think you have not thought this out. First off, yes, we are saved in 3 ways but only one time -- when we trust in God/Christ.J. Jump said:
There are only 2 ultimate destinies -- kingdom of God or lake of fire.
There is no, as you seem to believe though in a different way, such place as "purgatory" -- what you call believers missing "the kingdom of the heavenlies."
I notice that your theology brings the OT typology into play regarding salvation under the new covenant. That is totally misguided! There are "2 folds" and 2 gospels, it is true. There is not a 3rd gospel that is a "hybrid" of OT and NT which seems like what you and those sites describe.
skypair
That is very UNhelpful, "Hope." That is like the "Jim Jones" equivalent of "Don't believe them; they're out to get you!"Hope of Glory said:
What I find disingenuous is the say "PM me and we'll discuss." Isn't that like saying "Let's talk where I can control the playing field?"
No, let's talk here where the "crow" cooked before serving. :laugh:
skypair
Not that I owe anyone an explanation, but my offer is to talk off the message board so that we can have a sane conversation that is easier to follow instead of five or six different people trying to hop in on a thread and start chasing rabbit trails all over the place.
It seems odd to me that I can't count how many times I have been told I am wrong and how seriously wrong I am on this board and to date as of the typing of this post there have been ZERO people that want to enter into a one-on-one conversation.
I don't understand why no one can talk in a one-on-one setting, but has to have a conversation where threads are more often than not hijacked.
The offer still stands that anyone that wants to visit one-on-one is more than welcome to embark on a conversation. And I don't see how I can "control" things. That's just a lame excuse to be blunt.
2 Timothy2:1-4
New Member
J. Jump said:
I cannot speak for anyone else but I have observed you for a bit now. You lack a level of courtesy and appear arrogant in your responses. You make claims that other views arent in the Bible but do not follow up with why. And the big reason is you see the gospels as being other than what they are so we have no common ground to work from therefore any conversation is a no starter.
Wow . . . so you want to throw out that someone is in error. You want to say they are in grave error, but you don't want to do anything but let them swim in their error and you say I lack a level of courtesy. Wow . . . it continues to amaze me how many people want to say how much I and others are in error, but they don't want to do anything about even when asked to be shown the error of their way. Amazing.
And yes sometimes when people are confident in the way they approach things that can be mistaken as arrogance, but if you truly "knew" me you would know that is not an accurate description. I believe in what I believe, but I understand I have not cornered the market on Truth and so therefore while I stand firm in what I believe it is not such that when shown through Scripture to be in error that I wont' change what I believe. I have done that a few times in the last couple of years. Now I don't know how you get arrogance out of that, but I'll just chalk you up as another one of those folks that talks a talk, but won't back up the talk. And that's not meant as an offense, but it just gets tiresome when all people want to do is throw around cheap phrases without any substance to back them up.
Hope of Glory
New Member
2 Timothy2:1-4 said:
You're wrong because you disagree with me.
He makes my point quite well.
One thing that I have learned about Baptists is that it does not matter what the Scriptures say when they contradict a doctrinal statement, a preconceived notion, or whatever, and the most common form of attack is, "You obviously don't care about the truth because you don't agree with me."
BTW, Skypair, you are quite correct when you say, " There are only 2 ultimate destinies..."
J. Jump has said that repeatedly.
You're just incorrect in identifying those two ultimate destinies. One is the lake of fire. But, the Kingdom message is for a limited duration, and you can rule from the heavenlies, or you can rule from the earth, or you can be cast into outer darkness; you can be a servant.
That has no bearing on your ultimate destiny, though, which is being discussed in another thread about "eternity in heaven".
2 Timothy2:1-4
New Member
The lack if intellectual honesty and the manipulation tactics by those of the Kingdom Theology camp is astounding. It is reminiscent of the JWs'. When you cant goad someone in to a fruitless debate then try manipulation. It is as obvious as the day is long.
Oasis I wasn't talking about the thread getting off subject, but when talking about the gospel of the kingdom it is so detailed that rabbit trails just start taking off because so many people start asking questions and start making statements. It's very difficult to have a sane, easy to follow conversation regarding the gospel of the kingdom on a message board.
Again I don't see what the big deal is about talking one-on-one with a person?
It's a catch 22 and that's why I offer to visit one-on-one with folks. Which the offer takers still equal up to zero :thumbs:Hope of Glory
New Member
I was referring to Baptists in general, and specifically contrasting them to others. I have been a Baptist since I was a child. I remained a Baptist because at the time, Baptists, in general were interested in the truth. When I was a child, you could walk into a Baptist church, and you would stand about a 40% chance of hearing a good Kingdom message, about a 40% chance of hearing a salvation message being taught to saved people, and about 20% somewhere else, often involving Lordship Salvation.
Today, I find fewer and fewer Baptist churches that are willing to accept anything that contradicts their doctrinal statement. And, if the elders haven't read the doctrinal statement too closely, when you show them something in the doctrinal statement that goes against the popular teaching of the day, "Well, they just didn't know any better."
Does it mean that all Baptists are like that? No. I'm not even sure it would be most. But, it's sizable and growing.
My entire life, I've encountered the "I don't care what the Bible actually says, I believe..." attitude. But, I had an elder explicitly say, "I don't care what the Bible actually says, I just care what the Spirit teaches me". Well, it's not the Holy Spirit that leads you to understand something that is contrary to the actual words.
Now, that does not mean that we are all going to have the same understanding. But, our attitude should be, "let's see what the Scriptures say".
And one thing that I've learned about Baptists (in general) is that it does not matter what the Scriptures say when they contradict a doctrinal statement, a preconceived notion, or whatever, and the most common form of attack is, "You obviously don't care about the truth because you don't agree with me."
I know a KJVO type who is KJVO up until the KJV contradicts something that he already believes. In his opinion, the KJV is the literal and inspired word of God without error. But, when it contradicts his preformed theology, then "we just haven't opened our hearts and minds to the spirit."
Most of my dealings are withing the Baptist church, but outside the Baptist church, it is much the same, although I don't believe it always has been. I believe that at one point, most Baptists put Scriptures first. I now think that it's a minority position.
And this is coming from someone who has had to change many preconcieved ideas over the years.
Today, I find fewer and fewer Baptist churches that are willing to accept anything that contradicts their doctrinal statement. And, if the elders haven't read the doctrinal statement too closely, when you show them something in the doctrinal statement that goes against the popular teaching of the day, "Well, they just didn't know any better."
Does it mean that all Baptists are like that? No. I'm not even sure it would be most. But, it's sizable and growing.
My entire life, I've encountered the "I don't care what the Bible actually says, I believe..." attitude. But, I had an elder explicitly say, "I don't care what the Bible actually says, I just care what the Spirit teaches me". Well, it's not the Holy Spirit that leads you to understand something that is contrary to the actual words.
Now, that does not mean that we are all going to have the same understanding. But, our attitude should be, "let's see what the Scriptures say".
And one thing that I've learned about Baptists (in general) is that it does not matter what the Scriptures say when they contradict a doctrinal statement, a preconceived notion, or whatever, and the most common form of attack is, "You obviously don't care about the truth because you don't agree with me."
I know a KJVO type who is KJVO up until the KJV contradicts something that he already believes. In his opinion, the KJV is the literal and inspired word of God without error. But, when it contradicts his preformed theology, then "we just haven't opened our hearts and minds to the spirit."
Most of my dealings are withing the Baptist church, but outside the Baptist church, it is much the same, although I don't believe it always has been. I believe that at one point, most Baptists put Scriptures first. I now think that it's a minority position.
And this is coming from someone who has had to change many preconcieved ideas over the years.