MacArthur's 6th distinctive of LS

Isn't this exactly what LS is about? The full commitment to the object of ones faith, which is Jesus?

 

You can fully commit to Jesus as the only way to salvation without making an upfront commitment to a lifetime of discipleship. One cannot know the ramifications of following Christ UNTIL they have faith in Christ.

 

Thank you, jd. And later last night I was watching a movie about the Mormons that seemed to speak to this LS issue. It seems what the Mormon leader in the picture and JM are trying to do is establish some kind of secular Christian rules that professed Christ's will naturally follow them in.

IOW, the problem to JM is that he does not see fruit of salvation in others' converts but does -- has been able to influence --- his own. Bahvior is not necessarily a sign of salvation. It could merely be a sign of JM's influence causing many to hypocritically practice what he teaches. He's not teaching to go do anything wrong -- it certainly bring into the equation that you are repenting of "self" unto God for salvation.

But I certainly believe that he seems to require those in need of salvation -- who admit that they can't save themselves -- to make a commitment as if they could save themselves by repenting of sins and making Jesus Lord.

And I would point out the repenting needs to be of self, not of sins. After we are saved we repent of sins seeking God's help to overcome them. But prior to salvation, we don't have God's power to overcome them so repentance before salvation is contradictory to salvation in Christ. Repentance of sins by the unsaved suggests we can save ourselves by getting rid of our sins. Do you follow that line of reasoning?

skypair

 

Here's how I think of LS. I believe that it is false teaching that has totally ruined the true "gospel message" to the lost world.
Think about this: Salvation is a free gift, correct? Eph 2:8-9 (quoting that scripture a lot recently) So, LS would be like me giving my friend "bob" a gift. Normally, a gift is given without anything asked in return...that's the nature of a GIFT. But when I gave the gift to "bob", saying, "here bob, take this gift, but you have to serve me for the rest of your life and commit everything that you own to me" , the gift is no longer a gift. "bob" is paying for the gift if he has commit everything that he has to me. Do you see the comparison? Salvation cannot be a free gift if we are expected to make Jesus the Lord of our life in order to receive it.

 

KSeeker:

You have it pegged!

All jd was able to do is repeat the extra-biblical Calvinistic presuppositions that regeneration (salvation) precedes faith, and faith is a gift of God.

Here are two articles that answer those extra-biblical teachings:

Does Regeneration Precede Faith?

The Danger of Teaching that Faith is the Gift of God

jd also wrote,

What jd and MacArthur believe is that the lost man has already been regenerated, i.e., born again before he ever expresses faith, repentance or belief in the Lord Jesus Christ. So, when they speak of, as JM demands, “whole-hearted commitment” they believe they are gaining that commitment from a man that has been born again already. This is how the LS men theoretically disconnect works from their message.
When you follow their logic they preach the Lordship Salvation interpretation of the Gospel, but are seeking decisions for “commitment” from those who have already been born into the family of God.

But here is the real twist. LS is a message that they insist must be acted upon with an upfront commitment to the lordship of Christ and full-surrender in “exchange” for the gift of eternal life. BTW, MacArthur uses the word “exchange”. He, therefore, is preaching a “barter” system gospel. This is what you landed on in your comment above.

See- Lordship Salvation’s “Barter” System.



LM

 

Ok. I personally do not study man's doctrine. I try my best to remain in God's word and rely on His spirit to teach me. Thanks though.

 

Question? How do you delete your profile?

 

MB --- this is an excellent point. Many denoms try to appear righteous in this life by their bahavior (something JM appears to be dabbling into with LS) but they have omitted to actually be saved in eternity.

skypair

 

I would like to see that passage(s), jd.

I believe that the gospel call is distinct from the "follower's" or "discipleship call." Didn't one of those passages say that if a man hate not his mother and father ... he cannot be my disciple? Another said (John 6, I believe) "many of His disciples followed Him no more." Neither of these mean that they lost their salvation. They merely show that there is the spiritual level of followership/discipleship and there is the physical level where the flesh is committed -- is laid on the altar, Rom 12:1 -- to what one understands is Godly calling to ministry.

skypair

 

Are you familiar with the term "sacral society?" Almost every former society operated this way and it is, therefore, a very great temptation for men! Sacral society means that societies try to impose their religion on their people through government. Calvinists and Reformers (and Catholics before them) saw religion and government as the "two swords" that Jesus told the disciples "is enough" just before Peter whacked off the Centurion's ear!

So what I am saying is that JM is suggesting a progression within his own church toward this kind of thing. D. James Kennedy was similarly motivated. If I were to guess, I would say JM's and DJ's eschatology may be similar. Does JM believe that the church is "perfecting" the world for Christ's return. How does one do that without imposing, in some way, a Christian ideals on society? Calvin did the same thing, right?

Comparisons are judgments.

More like "turning" to Christ, jd. In the tender state of your "new birth," Paul says that you don't even know what body you shall be (1Cor 15:37) -- what the new birth has committed you to. All you do know is what one poster's monicker offers "God'swaybestway." You have come to live in His kingdom. It is doubtful that you trusted in Christ because, for example, you wanted to become a minister or a monk. That would sorta be NOT "turning from self" but rather, asking God to approve your "self's" plans, right?

skypair

 

I'm just going to address one thing here . John 6:66 : From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him . ( TNIV )

That means that they were never saved in the first place . They did not lose their salvation ( that's an impossibility for those who He has granted faith to believe ) .

See also 1 John 2:19 : They went out from us , but they did not really belong to us . For if they had belonged to us , they would have remained with us ; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us . ( TNIV )

 

Those could be rendered other ways, rip. If your pastor started preaching "free will," I suspect that you would leave, too. You don't understand "free will" much as those is John 6:66 couldn't fathom drinking blood and eating human flesh!

In the latter case you offer --- we are not all "arms" in the body. We even have preferences in what kind of music we will subject ourselves to in church. So, yeah -- they weren't "of them" but we don't know if it was a salvation issue or not in all cases, do we?

skypair

 

Our conversation seems to have taken a nasty turn over your misrepresentation of my words. Do you deny that any LS believer could be hypocrites? like Pharisees who do as JM says outwardly but do not know Christ inwardly?

I don't know where you got the first notion you mention. But I'll assume that you know that the heroes of you faith actually persecuted and burned people who disagreed with them. It you love them, why do you hate me?

skypair

 

These are the exact points I have been trying to make with you regarding repentance. In order to receive salvation, you don't repent of your SINS, you repent of the SINNER.

But discipleship is a decision to be made based on spiritual maturity. In fact, today we have discipleship classes to prepare new Christians to become disciples. Paul and John Mark is an example of what happens when we are not ready to be disciples. He left Paul but later Paul praised him for his witness.

skypair